Lexicus
Deity
If you haven't voted for any mass murderers, it's because you've never voted for any candidate who actually won the election and became President...which...congratulations, ya know?
2020 US Election (Part Two)
- Thread starter Lexicus
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If you haven't voted for any mass murderers, it's because you've never voted for any candidate who actually won the election and became President...which...congratulations, ya know?
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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If Sanders had run on his 2016 organization and platform, he'd have won. He embraced too much this time, "help" he should have refused outright. This time, as last, it's not "the economy, stupid", and it's not idpol. It's the working class' s dignity. The likes of the DSA have too much PMC and its causes within to figure it out. It can't be populist and therefore will never be popular.
It's my take, it's something I cannot prove (that Sanders could have done better), and I'm far away. You can take it or leave it, but my opinion is that the DSA is a dead end. Sanders should have built a new organization. If anything is to change there it will have to be through a new organization.
amadeus
rad thibodeaux-xs
Has anyone watched Joe Biden’s speech? I’m going to put it on soon since I’ve heard it’s gotten way more positive reviews and blew out expectations.
I don’t have anything against the guy, especially if he’s going to (a.) make his own path separate from Obama and (b.) not entangle himself too much with the radical party members that want to turn the whole country upside down.
I don’t have anything against the guy, especially if he’s going to (a.) make his own path separate from Obama and (b.) not entangle himself too much with the radical party members that want to turn the whole country upside down.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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More of the same will turn the country upside down, It can't take much more. But yes Biden's success so far has been based on his refusal to personally genuflect to wokesterism. And that was Sander's mistake this time - he did.
Do remember however that the real candidate is the VP.
Do remember however that the real candidate is the VP.
amadeus
rad thibodeaux-xs
I didn’t listen to Harris during the primaries because I didn’t think she’d get near the nomination. I’m just glad it’s not Cory Booker or Bob Francis O’Rourke. Something about the way they look give me the willies, like they’re going to bite the heads off a bat like Ozzy Osboune.
EgonSpengler
Deity
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I wasn't sure whether to put this in the Election thread or the Raves thread. 70 former national security officials have co-signed an open letter to the American people, outlining why, in their opinion, President Trump must be voted out of office, and endorsing Joe Biden. Crucially, imho, all of them are Republicans. Some of the names I recognize right off: Chuck Hagel, former Senator for Nebraska and former Secretary of Defense; Michael Hayden, former director of the NSA and of the CIA; John Negroponte, former Ambassador to the UN and former Director of National Intelligence; and William Webster, former Director of the FBI and of the CIA. (There's also a Richard Armitage, but it's not the actor. 
)
Former Republican National Security Advisors For Biden
The full text:
And the full list of signatories:
p.s. Annoyingly, the letter isn't dated, but here's an accompanying news report on it, which is:
ABC News, 20 August 2020 - "More than 70 Republican former national security officials come out in support of Biden"
)Former Republican National Security Advisors For Biden
The full text:
Spoiler :
And the full list of signatories:
Spoiler :
p.s. Annoyingly, the letter isn't dated, but here's an accompanying news report on it, which is:
ABC News, 20 August 2020 - "More than 70 Republican former national security officials come out in support of Biden"
amadeus
rad thibodeaux-xs
How many of those 70 names are responsible for the last 20 years of Mideast misadventure and twiddling their thumbs, losing ground to Red China? I'd rather have Trump make boorish remarks and the right policy decisions than another two decades of top-level screwups that'll cause a further decline in America's standing.
You do realise we have four years of actual policy decisions behind us now, right? It isn't 2016 where you can go "man I'd rather give this guy a shot" like he's a complete unknown in terms of competence.
Do you seriously believe that Trump isn't a part of the decline of whatever you think the US' international standing is?
EgonSpengler
Deity
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It's a heckuva lot more than 20 years, in some cases. Webster was appointed CIA chief by Ronald Reagan.
You're gonna have to try to sell me on this part, dude. Good luck, but I'll try to keep an open mind.
You mean like withdrawing from the TPP, a trade agreement with basically everybody in East Asia but China, which was partly intended to box out China, and strength the economies of everybody else in the region. A massive alternative competition factor to China's belt and road.
Instead of the Obama era policy of getting everybody in a group to oppose China together, Trump decided to ... piss off everybody and still engage China on trade without support from everybody else. And the US ended up on the outside of the TPP.
Trump foreign policy is awful. He pushed Iran back into pursing a nuclear bomb, he has pissed off all of the US traditional allies, he has slightly wounded China, but not actually solved the issues of the region, and he has allowed the crazier US allies, to go full crazy like Saudi Arabia and Turkey.
amadeus
rad thibodeaux-xs
And in terms of foreign policy, I'd have little to complain about.
He’s been less bad than I thought, but your and my directions of where we would take foreign policy are probably far different from one another. I’d say NATO enlargement and the push further into E. Europe following the collapse of the Soviet satellites was an unnecessary step towards causing future conflict.
Tying foreign aid or development contracts to anything human rights related, I’d probably take a more lenient stand on it. After the Cold War ended we signaled to marginal regimes in the third world we wouldn’t be there to back them up now that the Soviet menace was gone, and a new menace has gone in with worse strings attached than the Russians ever could dreamed of.
Unfortunately, these policies aren’t being followed and Trump shares some of the blame.
I don’t like free trade agreements that are two thousand pages long. Here’s my boilerplate treaty, in one sentence: The undersigned parties agree to not impose tariffs or import quotas.
Unfortunately we still end up with a lot of non-tariff barriers around things like copyright protections, safety precautions (which I don’t have a problem with, a safety standard could be added as an addendum.)
So it's foreign policy decisions specifically. Which are apparently worth the trade-off weighted against domestic policy (and crisis management). Okay.
I was interested in your reply to Drakle until I saw you focus on one specific thing (out of a larger critical post) just because it matches up favourably with your dream world of imports and exports (and again, weakens opposition to China).
What's the perceived downside of "Losing international standing?". Like, what will get worse for American citizens and how much should they spend to prevent that loss?
I can understand the instinct to retain relative strength. But what benefit does it actually serve?
(As an aside, I think forfeiting AGW leadership will have huge longterm harms, but I know other people don't have the same threat matrix there that I do)
I can understand the instinct to retain relative strength. But what benefit does it actually serve?
(As an aside, I think forfeiting AGW leadership will have huge longterm harms, but I know other people don't have the same threat matrix there that I do)
amadeus
rad thibodeaux-xs
No, I didn't make that statement; I'm talking about the points made by the 70 signatories and who'd I trust between the two of them.
Farm Boy
I hope you dance
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I think the specter is that without daddy, morons will start murdering each other and building the nastier sorts of empires again. The ones where bad news and dissent are not allowed. They tend to export their filth vigorously and require massive bloodshed to unravel. Their tools are better in 2020 than they were last time.
I can't say it's an entirely cracked out fear.
Well, China can form a local hegemony. They can then gobble up a variety of low Human Development Index countries around them and get into a righteous tussle with India over water. How much of that is prevented by American strength? And what do Americans lose when it happens.
The consumption of low HDI countries could deprive the US of trading partners if China decides they don't want USD. But you're then spending money in order to save money, when that same spent money could be used on self-investment.
I get it, I've got instincts towards power projection. But I also watch Trump trying to woo and bribe both the military and law enforcement into illegal levels of loyalty towards him. Then I wonder what that power projection effort is actually buying.
The consumption of low HDI countries could deprive the US of trading partners if China decides they don't want USD. But you're then spending money in order to save money, when that same spent money could be used on self-investment.
I get it, I've got instincts towards power projection. But I also watch Trump trying to woo and bribe both the military and law enforcement into illegal levels of loyalty towards him. Then I wonder what that power projection effort is actually buying.
Farm Boy
I hope you dance
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Eisenhower warned of it and it's as true now as it was then. A lot of Americans still think we're supposed to be a good state that makes the world a better and safer place. The full dominance of the past certainly isn't at a level that is going to reign in India and China with themselves anymore. Maybe that makes the world a better place for its absence. Maybe they'll get into a proper proxy war again. Who knows.
The US doesn't get a lot from its military projection.
But military projection is not the same as global respect. The US dollar is the world reserve currency, the US is the world cultural capital, the US is where the majority of immigrants and students want to go, and the US passport allows American tourists to go to most of the world. Well, it did, until the US became the COVID capital.
Of course, the US doesn't really take full use of these advantages. The US basically has its first pick of legions of educated professionals and wealthy migrants, and then throws them into a broken immigration system with bizarre rules and caps. Lots of migrants here in Australia only came here because of that. And tons of students come from Asia, get their degrees in the US at top schools... and then get forced back to their own country.
And the US immense soft power is constantly pissed away by misuse of their hard power.
But anyway this diversion into foreign policy is a dodge. These people aren't endorsing Biden for his foreign policy views. They are signalling that 'hey we are Republicans, but this situation is so fudged that we are crossing party lines'. They haven't been promised a spot in his admin. And Biden really isn't going to start some grand adventures. The Democratic party base is much more anti-war than it was.
But military projection is not the same as global respect. The US dollar is the world reserve currency, the US is the world cultural capital, the US is where the majority of immigrants and students want to go, and the US passport allows American tourists to go to most of the world. Well, it did, until the US became the COVID capital.
Of course, the US doesn't really take full use of these advantages. The US basically has its first pick of legions of educated professionals and wealthy migrants, and then throws them into a broken immigration system with bizarre rules and caps. Lots of migrants here in Australia only came here because of that. And tons of students come from Asia, get their degrees in the US at top schools... and then get forced back to their own country.
And the US immense soft power is constantly pissed away by misuse of their hard power.
But anyway this diversion into foreign policy is a dodge. These people aren't endorsing Biden for his foreign policy views. They are signalling that 'hey we are Republicans, but this situation is so fudged that we are crossing party lines'. They haven't been promised a spot in his admin. And Biden really isn't going to start some grand adventures. The Democratic party base is much more anti-war than it was.
This is just going to be shrugged off as proof of Trump's "Deep State" conspiracy theory against him.I wasn't sure whether to put this in the Election thread or the Raves thread. 70 former national security officials have co-signed an open letter to the American people, outlining why, in their opinion, President Trump must be voted out of office, and endorsing Joe Biden. Crucially, imho, all of them are Republicans. Some of the names I recognize right off: Chuck Hagel, former Senator for Nebraska and former Secretary of Defense; Michael Hayden, former director of the NSA and of the CIA; John Negroponte, former Ambassador to the UN and former Director of National Intelligence; and William Webster, former Director of the FBI and of the CIA. (There's also a Richard Armitage, but it's not the actor.
Former Republican National Security Advisors For Biden
The full text:
Spoiler :
And the full list of signatories:
Spoiler :
p.s. Annoyingly, the letter isn't dated, but here's an accompanying news report on it, which is:
ABC News, 20 August 2020 - "More than 70 Republican former national security officials come out in support of Biden"
Meanwhile Q-anon supporters are running for office:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/12/politics/qanon-congressional-candidates/index.html
God help us
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r16
not deity
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the American Dominance of the world is a thing where those who could oppose America and depending circumstances might even kick America's backside do nothing of the sort . Because global capitalism and elites and one percent of one percents can do whatever they want and they do not suddenly discover their throats slit for some reason . America is decaying as everything decays and poster knows because he is almost 50 and ı like gain more pain every year . Obama's solution was war in the Middle East using other treasuries and other armies and some blocking of China . Which saw American bumbling in running its proxies and failure in destruction of the Republic of 1923 and this is really a thing , because the vacuum rehabilated Russia into a Superpower thingy , from crony capitalism of Putin . Did ı ever mention Siberia is vast , like bigger than even Texas ? China could buy a lot of stuff with Putin (the conqueror of Çeçenistan) in charge . lt definitely becomes another ball game with a Russia mocking America and America's legions of all stripes , down to heart eaters in the Middle East , whom even America has to drone strike day to day . This is unstability , this pushes China into stuff , hence even the new Silk Road thing .
trump says he will befriend Putin , merciless bosses bossing China around . Trump is a joke , Trump is more interested in personal power , Trump is the reason why a nuclear war and stuff is so much more possible , like since 1962 . You know you can buy Trump . Obama was a spineless jerk , you really had to make him understand there would be a lot of broken things if he just didn't go and find other things to play with .
trump says he will befriend Putin , merciless bosses bossing China around . Trump is a joke , Trump is more interested in personal power , Trump is the reason why a nuclear war and stuff is so much more possible , like since 1962 . You know you can buy Trump . Obama was a spineless jerk , you really had to make him understand there would be a lot of broken things if he just didn't go and find other things to play with .
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