9/11 Cross 2: The Crux of the Matter

I rather doubt anyone is "worshipping" the cross...

Did we not already have a empire collapsing civil war ALREADY ? Over this very same issue back during the Byzantine empire. Are americans an Christians so blind to the past and actually NOT know what happened ? ................. wait

Seriously though, hasnt this issue been resolved already.
If muslim arent permitted to have a mosque any where near 9-11 the same should also apply.
 
Seriously though, hasnt this issue been resolved already.
If muslim arent permitted to have a mosque any where near 9-11 the same should also apply.

The world trade center wasn't in Princeton, NJ. And that mosque is going through.

Edit: actually where's 9-11?
 
Did we not already have a empire collapsing civil war ALREADY ? Over this very same issue back during the Byzantine empire. Are americans an Christians so blind to the past and actually NOT know what happened ? ................. wait

Seriously though, hasnt this issue been resolved already.
If muslim arent permitted to have a mosque any where near 9-11 the same should also apply.

??? I honestly have no clue what you're alluding to with this post? I simply said that I don't think anyone is "worshipping" those crosses. Yes, perhaps people are putting too much symbolism onto an item, but that doesn't mean the worship the cross by any means. So yeah, I guess I am blind to the past and have no idea what happened in the Byzantine Empire regarding this issue.

P.S. - For the record, I supposed the Muslim mosque being opened in that community center.
 

Byzantine Iconoclasm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Iconoclasm

We as Christians already went though this a long time ago, while I hail and agree with you sentiments, we are really just rehashing the same old arguments. I just wish Christians had more knowledge of there past and not look silly / idiotic when it come to such things.

EDIT: Veneration of sanctioned icons ONLY !
Problem SOLVED.
 
You admitted that the crosses are not the same, but don't understand why two cross that are similar aren't the same. Seems like a disconnect on your part.
My "admission" they weren't the same was my entire argument. "That sort of "disconnect"?

And because a cross apparently fabricated after the first one seemed to have been simply thrown away, even though it was supposedly so important to so many Christians as a symbol of their beliefs, clearly aren't the "same"? That sort of "disconnect"? :crazyeye:

Even displaying the original "9/11 cross" at the museum is nothing but "an opportunity to proselytize".

Examiner: 9-11 Cross: In opposition

When nineteen religious believers flew planes into the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon and made a failed attempt at another target on September 11th 2001, something pretty amazing was found in the wreckage of the Twin Towers. Believe it or not, a cross beam from the one of the towers was found in the shape of… a cross beam. It must have been a sign from God. Because of this, some religious believers decided to worship this cross beam which has now been called the “9/11 Cross.”

Now, some religious believers want to use the “9/11 Cross” as an opportunity to proselytize by demanding that it go into the national 9/11 Memorial Museum which is set to open next year. These same religious believers are no doubt hoping to cement the marriage of patriotism to their particular religious belief with this steel cross beam.

Their argument is that this religious symbol was “miraculously” found in the wreckage of the Twin Towers and has given some people comfort; therefore, it belongs in the museum. There are many problems with this. First, it wasn’t so miraculous. Second, not everyone gained comfort from it. And third, it is an attempt to use this tragedy for religious purposes.

As a non-Christian American, I am infuriated at the way these religious believers are using this tragedy for their own religious gain. Not long ago, a Muslim cleric planned to build a Muslim Community Center four blocks from Ground Zero and Christian believers went absolutely insane. They yelled and screamed that Ground Zero was sacred ground and that a “Mosque” shouldn’t be built so close to this sacred site. They ignored the fact that there are churches less than a block away from this same site. And now these same people have the audacity to attempt to push their particular beliefs into the museum dealing with this sacred ground.

The fact is that there were many non-Christians who died in the 9/11 tragedy and there were many non-Christians who came to the rescue on that day. Putting this “9/11 Cross” into this museum is like spitting in their faces. Have they no sense of decency? These religious believers can’t allow anything in this nation to go without rubberstamping their religion on it. It seems that anything having to do with 9/11 in particular can’t go without the Christian seal of approval for all to see and worship.

Let me put it another way. If it wasn’t a Cross found in the wreckage but some other religious symbol like a star and crescent (from Islam) and Muslims were demanding that this symbol brought peace and comfort to Muslim rescue workers and that it ought to be in the 9/11 Memorial Museum, what do you think the response would be from those in the Christian community who are pushing for “9/11 Cross” to go into the museum today?

There would be protests in the street and Fox News would be talking about how these Muslims are using 9/11 to push their beliefs. We all know this to be true, so why is it any different when it is a Christian symbol used for these same purposes? Even worse, this is just another way for Christians to link their religion to patriotism and to attempt to establish a government endorsement for their beliefs.

It is unconscionable for these religious believers to force their religion down everyone’s throat and to attempt to take advantage of this tragedy in this way. The tragedy of 9/11 should have brought us all together as Americans and yet here these people are, trying to force their brand onto everyone. This museum isn’t about Christianity. It isn’t a Christianity museum. It is a museum for all Americans and shouldn’t be used as an advertising opportunity. If they are really that hard up for publicity, I am sure they would get a lot just putting their “9/11 Cross” on display at one of the many nearby churches.

But no, they won’t settle for anything less than another false impression of a government endorsement of their particular beliefs. They won’t settle for anything less than another crack in the Jeffersonian Wall and another instance in which they can claim precedence for claims of a Christian Nation.

The irony is that it was the events of 9/11 which started the so called, “New Atheism” movement. It was this very tragedy which woke up so many atheists to the dangers of religious belief. Yet atheists aren’t the ones trying to use this tragedy in such an insensitive fashion. For shame Christians, for shame!
 
Perhaps the twin towers would not have collapsed if they had been built as mosques instead of a bunch of crossed I beams?
 
Yes, I can see how seeing a cross is the equivalent of having a religion forced down your throat. OH NOES, A COW! DAMN THOSE HINDUS FORCING THEIR RELIGION DOWN MY THROAT!!
 
Yes, I can see how seeing a cross is the equivalent of having a religion forced down your throat. OH NOES, A COW! DAMN THOSE HINDUS FORCING THEIR RELIGION DOWN MY THROAT!!

Of course cows can exist just fine without any associations with Hinduism. So can crosses with Christianity. On the other hand the use of this "9/11 cross" has no reason or purpose other than it's appeal to Christianity. In no way is it neutral.
 
So much for many Christians not worshiping crosses, no matter how incongruous, ironic, or even deliberately fabricated they might happen to be.

Believe it or not, a cross beam from the one of the towers was found in the shape of… a cross beam.
 
So you really claim that all of these people have set up this cross as their deity and are worshipping it? I mean, you know what the word worship means, yes? You keep saying it, but I would hope you're not actually suggesting that the folks think the cross itself is their deity.

Regarding the cow comparison, I was trying to suggest that anyone who is flipping out over this cross in its religious context clearly has issues of their own to deal with. I mean, if someone cannot even handle being exposed to religion at all, that's something they probably need to talk to a shrink about.
 
Even displaying the original "9/11 cross" at the museum is nothing but "an opportunity to proselytize".

No it isn't. There isn't anyone at the 9/11 museum going around encouraging people to join a church. Nobody is there trying to save souls.

So, yeah, invalid.
 
Yes, I can see how seeing a cross is the equivalent of having a religion forced down your throat. OH NOES, A COW! DAMN THOSE HINDUS FORCING THEIR RELIGION DOWN MY THROAT!!
You will admit that attempting to prevent the display of a cross is not religious persecution then?
 
Byzantine Iconoclasm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Iconoclasm

We as Christians already went though this a long time ago, while I hail and agree with you sentiments, we are really just rehashing the same old arguments. I just wish Christians had more knowledge of there past and not look silly / idiotic when it come to such things.

EDIT: Veneration of sanctioned icons ONLY !
Problem SOLVED.

Veneration is a totally different thing from worship anyway.
 
No it isn't. There isn't anyone at the 9/11 museum going around encouraging people to join a church. Nobody is there trying to save souls.

So, yeah, invalid.
Others clearly happen to disagree with your provincial and prejudiced opinions in this matter, including the author of the article I posted. "So yeah, invalid".
 
Others clearly happen to disagree with your provincial and prejudiced opinions in this matter, including the author of the article I posted. "So yeah, invalid".

Good for them. I don't begrudge people their freedom of expression. The more voices at the table the better. I don't see expressions of opinions as shoving things down the throats of others , as the author claims.

Unlike the author, I recognize that freedom of religion does not amount to a freedom from religion. I'll readily admit to that being a provincial view, it is, after all, more than 222 years old. Maybe I feel bad that the author is so upset by the simple expressions of faith of other people, but that's not a reason to diminish or halt those expressions. Indeed, it becomes all the more important to engage in a dialogue, rather than rapidly dismiss other people's important views as spitting upon the faces of others, to use the author's phrase.

Of course, when a dispute does arise an eventual resolution is required. I'm affirmed by the fact that the court agreed with me, recognizing the cross as historic and not merely religious, a fact that your author evades.
 
I find displays of religion offensive because I find their teachings offensive.

People have the right to believe what they want, but that doesn't mean there should be no control over what is displayed in public spaces. The 9/11 museum is not about any religion, but about the people who died, who were not all Christians. Keep the cross out of it.
 
I'll readily admit to that being a provincial view, it is, after all, more than 222 years old.
You mean separation of church and state, and that this is supposedly a secular country? :lol:

No, the fact that our forefathers were even more religious than we are now isn't what makes this a matter of prejudice and provincialism. Living in the distant past while forcing your own religious beliefs on others is what makes it so, while completely ignoring those basic precents which this country was actually founded. Even many of our founders more than two centuries ago understood the dangers of mixing religion with government, yet many today still don't seem to be able to understand why separating the two is so essential in any free and open society.

People have the right to believe what they want, but that doesn't mean there should be no control over what is displayed in public spaces. The 9/11 museum is not about any religion, but about the people who died, who were not all Christians. Keep the cross out of it.
Such a simple notion is so difficult for some to understand. This is especially true with those who think this is a religious war between Christians and Muslims, instead of a matter of blowback from absurd US foreign policy decisions.
 
Living in the distant past while forcing your own religious beliefs on others is what makes it so, while completely ignoring those basic precents which this country was actually founded.

That's as may be, but that distinction isn't relevant here because the inclusion of a historic artifact in a museum dedicated to such artifacts does not in the least amount to forcing one's religious views upon other people even if the artifact in question is religious in nature.
 
Back
Top Bottom