A New Dawn Bug Reports and Feedback

[gramcrkr103]

#2 The next two reports are not really bugs but weird changes from old versions... Firstly, AIs are continually closing their borders, then requesting Open Borders.

I had thought this was the AI being bribed to cancel trades, since it does not seem to take them much to be bribed to go to war with Ruthless AI

 

[szemek77]

This is relevant to my game and interests.

When I say "Total War"-like AI, I really mean it, as a fanatic Total War game player. The major difference, though, is that the game never tells you when another faction bribes a neutral faction to go to war with you---though you know it's possible because you can actually do that with others.

But the AI in almost all the Total War games (except Empire, which is far more pliable with diplomacy) makes diplomacy pretty much completely useless. About the only thing that can be assured is that neutral factions will agree to trade relations with you.

Everything else is pretty much window dressing---you won't get an alliance out of anyone without some heavy-duty sacrifices on your end, and even then it won't mean jackshit 10 turns later when they decide you have 50 cities, they have 14, you have 7 full-stack armies, they have 2 and a half, and they decide to besiege your capital in London or Rome because declaring war doesn't auto-move hostile forces out of your lands, while your armies are off in Scythia or Morocco, 5 years away.

It's the same situation now in AND1.73 since I don't know when, maybe since 1.71 or so. Diplomacy is pretty much pointless. I know I can almost always get an Embassy and Open Borders established, but beyond that, they're just as likely to go to war with me and suddenly have 2 full-stacked armies on my borders after 1000 years of peace and mutual religious, military, and trade relations as they are to surrender themselves to me as a vassal state.

It's not worth it anymore. Flexible difficulty set me to Immortal difficulty a long-ass time ago and has never returned to lower it.

So I've just gone into World Builder to give myself huge armies just so I can survive without losing half my colonies because 12 of the world's 20 civilizations are at war with me because I took Mansa Munsa as a vassal while he was at war with Bulgaria, who then bribes BUTT EVERYONE to go to war with me and the only people NOT at war with me are barely city-states themselves, or have peace treaties with me because I just finished ending a brief war with them a few turns ago.

Good remarks, I have similar feeling about the diplomacy in AND.

Two remarks, though.

1. I think that diplomacy is on of the most difficult area to code properly. It is more intuitive than formulaic, isn't it? No surprise then that AI does NOT behave in a way we expect. I hope anyway that some changes in patch G will lead the AI and diplomacy in right direction.

2. We may make a mistake in percepion of the role and meaning of diplomacy in mankind history due to the fact that we live in democratic, peaceful countries with solid alliances (EU, NATO). So our builder's approach to CIV and our trust in multilateral diplomacy are becoming a little bit not realistic.

We can agree that history shows us different picture. Constant war, constant fight, backstabbing, conquer and destroy, no respect for enemies culture, religion, unstable borders were common all over the world right from the beginning of our history, to the WW II. So, in fact the game pretty much reflects the reality....

Anyway, I wish the diplomacy in ROM/AND was of more depth and meaning.

 

[os79]

I had thought this was the AI being bribed to cancel trades, since it does not seem to take them much to be bribed to go to war with Ruthless AI

Not have Ruthless AI on .

 

[Afforess]

Anyway, I wish the diplomacy in ROM/AND was of more depth and meaning.

With Ruthless AI, I've tried to do this. I'll give just one instance of the sophistication, because I don't want to bore you with details.

When the AI tries to get a map from a player, the value is increased by 15 fold if the AI is planning a war against you. But more sinister than that, if the AI is planning a war, but not against you (against someone else), and you are a friend of the victim, the AI will still try to solicit maps from you, because it figures you have better Intel then they do, being a friend. Likewise, if you try and buy a map from an AI going to war, and they are planning a war against you, or one of your friends, they will not sell their map to you, because who knows what you might do with it.

There is sophistication, but I doubt most players would ever notice it; because to them, a map trade is a map trade, not a clever backstab waiting to happen.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Don't know if this has been reported but with 1.73G, even with No Vassals checked at game setup, the Vassals occur any way.

I was wondering in my latest game why America went from 5 cities to 1 and then they had a star in front of their name. Mansa Musa then did the same thing. It all became clear when Ragnar sent me an offer to become my vassal and then Salazar did the same.

I never play with Vassals on so this was quite the surprise. Will this get fixed? Or has it already been addressed in the Next Patch?

JosEPh

 

[giffy]

Sure.

Awesome! Thanks!

 

[Myrrdin35]

Just a quick post to confirm the automated bug with explorers and ships. It seems they work fine in the Ancient era but by Medieval era they are either running in circles or just stay on one tile. (They head to a spot at the left side on the continent they are on where it meets ocean and just stay there, maybe that will help a little.) This happens for the AI also, noticed it in the game I was trying to play tonight. Went to build a few cities and their explorers stayed in the same two spots for many turns.

Also one other wierd thing happened I got the event that gave me 2 chariots, I sent them on their merry way to explore, forgot about them, brought up the map to find them to go to a new city and they weren't there. Also missing were 3 explorers and a few workers. Very strange.

This is new install of ROM and AND a few days ago and the patch. I noticed this with the F patch and tried the G one today and same thing is happening. No other mods installed and when playing I don't have the Rev or Barbarians checked.

On a better note a huge thank you to all you guys for making these mods, I stumbled upon them a few months ago and didn't get a chance to play them. Having played them the last few days, even with the few glitches I'm overwhelmed with everything. It truly is amazing what you've done Thanks again!

 

[os79]

Don't know if this has been reported but with 1.73G, even with No Vassals checked at game setup, the Vassals occur any way.

I was wondering in my latest game why America went from 5 cities to 1 and then they had a star in front of their name. Mansa Musa then did the same thing. It all became clear when Ragnar sent me an offer to become my vassal and then Salazar did the same.

I never play with Vassals on so this was quite the surprise. Will this get fixed? Or has it already been addressed in the Next Patch?

JosEPh

Figured why. BUg option tab, Diplomacy, have the option for Vassals. Since it is by default on, you still have Vassals. You need to uncheck it in order to turn off Vassals.

Afforess, for next patch or version, whatever, be sure to either make game options that are the same as the BUG option to be both non-functioning and invisible, if you want these options in BUG to be used. Just my recommendation.

 

[os79]

Patch G Report:

#1 I was mistaken about trading Peace. It seems it works but only if you are one who started the war. Apparently, the last time it was France who started the war and constantly rejected peace offers by other AIs . Anyway, I take advantage ruthlessly the peace trades in order to consolidate each new city .

#2 Not using Ruthless AI now so it may color this report. It seems that AI's military is real low in power ratio compared to me because I turned off Trade War. It is a mixed blessing. It help AIs to develop their civs, but I have to wonder if the only reason they went to war at all before was because of other AIs demanding them to go to war? I will try Ruthless AI the next game I play later on . I will continue this game and test if the civs are better developed without too much warring.

#3 I am testing with removing unhappiness from shaft mines in this game. If it is too overpowered, then I will try unhappiness for all three types of mines next game.

 

[os79]

Patch G Report:

My trieme had attacked and destroyed four enemy galleys. Yet it hadn't received any promotion. Same problem as before when we can't earn experience from animal units? Or different bug?

 

[Afforess]

Patch G Report:

My trieme had attacked and destroyed four enemy galleys. Yet it hadn't received any promotion. Same problem as before when we can't earn experience from animal units? Or different bug?

Bad luck, maybe? It's random, so it's hard to say.

 

[os79]

Bad luck, maybe? It's random, so it's hard to say.

Sixth galley by the same trieme. Intentional? Which modcomp is that again please?

 

[Afforess]

Sixth galley by the same trieme. Intentional? Which modcomp is that again please?

Battlefield Promotions. Without attaching VS to the game, I can't tell if the promotions are working correctly.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Figured why. BUg option tab, Diplomacy, have the option for Vassals. Since it is by default on, you still have Vassals. You need to uncheck it in order to turn off Vassals.

Afforess, for next patch or version, whatever, be sure to either make game options that are the same as the BUG option to be both non-functioning and invisible, if you want these options in BUG to be used. Just my recommendation.

Thanks for the reply os79.

So this game is stuck with Vassals and next game with G Patch I will need to go to Bug Options Before I end the 1st turn to turn off vassals.

JosEPh

 

[Afforess]

Thanks for the reply os79.

So this game is stuck with Vassals and next game with G Patch I will need to go to Bug Options Before I end the 1st turn to turn off vassals.

JosEPh

What!? You can change those settings any time you want, not just the first turn.

 

[os79]

Thanks for the reply os79.

So this game is stuck with Vassals and next game with G Patch I will need to go to Bug Options Before I end the 1st turn to turn off vassals.

JosEPh

What Afforess said . I turned off Vassals about 85 or so turns after the game started when I realized what was happening. Lucky me it was too early for vassalizing at that point .

 

[os79]

Battlefield Promotions. Without attaching VS to the game, I can't tell if the promotions are working correctly.

Oh.

I guess you will just have to have a trieme and a series of galleys to attack from WorldBuilder after trieme heal each time and see for yourself, if you care to test it out. No big deal, yet. It will be big deal later on when we get to more modern ships.

 

[JosEPh_II]

What!? You can change those settings any time you want, not just the first turn.

What??? How was I supposed to Know????

So, even though the game has 2 AI and Myself with a total of 7 vassal states in the year 591AD, I can turn it OFF and the game won't be broken?!!! My My My.

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

So which of the 4 Places in Bug Mod Options do I need to Uncheck to turn off Vassals?

Or do ALL 4 Need to be unchecked?

Cumbersome.

JosEPh

 

[os79]

So which of the 4 Places in Bug Mod Options do I need to Uncheck to turn off Vassals?

Or do ALL 4 Need to be unchecked?

Cumbersome.

JosEPh

Under Diplomacy tab, uncheck "Trade Vassals". That's it.