A Petition to Merge NES-IOT

[Crezth]

If the answer is that the two different styles, and thus the two different groups, are incompatible, then I guess it's a matter of some people not wanting cross-pollination, or not wanting an increase in the player base.

Which is, basically, exclusivism. The outcry of the NESers is just them wanting to keep outsiders out of their games. Of course they'll say things like "well, the IOTers could come play any time" - but they know that they won't come to the NES forum unless they have to, so the influx of IOTers (in NESer thought, "undesirables") is "controlled" or restricted in a manageable way.

 

[spryllino]

A lot of this discussion seems to be assuming that a merging of the NES and IOT forums would mean a merging of the games. To repeat the example I used earlier, Mafia and NOTW are two different games, yet manage to coexist in the same subforum, with predominantly mafia players joining in with NOTW games and vise versa. If the IOT and NES forums were merged, why would it necessarily be the case that either species would change? If the answer is that the two different styles, and thus the two different groups, are incompatible, then I guess it's a matter of some people not wanting cross-pollination, or not wanting an increase in the player base.

You can't have it both ways. Either the change would involve an alteration in how our NESes end up working, in which case we NESers almost unanimously don't want it because we believe that the change would be largely malign (and that the "cross-pollination" as you call it would reduce our NESes' quality; not all influences are positive, as I have discussed at great length!), or it wouldn't involve an alteration, in which case it's pointless.

As for an increase in the playerbase, there's nothing at all to stop people crossing over to the other forum as it is. We both know about the existence of the other. Those of us who don't don't do so because we don't want to. A merge will not somehow magically increase the player base.

This is not the nativist rubbish Crezth seems to be intent on making it out to be - but even if it were, Camikaze, you shouldn't even be considering doing it without practically any support from the NESing board at all, unless the staff is just intent on doing exactly the opposite of what their members manifestly want.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

Why did I have to go all Ron Paul in the dev thread. I brought this upon us, why didn't I listen.

 

[Camikaze]

You can't have it both ways. Either the change would involve an alteration in how our NESes end up working, in which case we NESers almost unanimously don't want it because we believe that the change would be largely malign (and that the "cross-pollination" as you call it would reduce our NESes' quality; not all influences are positive, as I have discussed at great length!), or it wouldn't involve an alteration, in which case it's pointless.

As for an increase in the playerbase, there's nothing at all to stop people crossing over to the other forum as it is. We both know about the existence of the other. Those of us who don't don't do so because we don't want to. A merge will not somehow magically increase the player base.

This is not the nativist rubbish Crezth seems to be intent on making it out to be - but even if it were, Camikaze, you shouldn't even be considering doing it without practically any support from the NESing board at all, unless the staff is just intent on doing exactly the opposite of what their members manifestly want.

I don't believe my comment does suggest both ways. I'm saying that neither IOTs nor NESes need change at all with a merge, but that there'd be cross-pollination of players, just as mafia players play NOTWs, and NOTW players play mafia games.

Say you have an apple shop, and an orange shop (although a better analogy would be Navels and Valenicas). Okay, you can currently access both the apples and oranges, but that's quite an inconvenience, so you'll get people either exclusively buying apples or exclusively buying oranges. Say the shops are merged. This does not mean you are forced to eat fruit salad, or that the apples and oranges merge into some sort of new fruit halfway between the two. If the apple buyers try out some oranges, it doesn't mean they'll eat the skin. The quality of the apples and oranges has not changed, it's just that now people can access both, and you'd expect more people to try out apples, and more people to try out oranges. If the shop is big enough, it'll bring in customers who wouldn't have gone to either of the small boutique shops.

If it's accepted that the games themselves don't have to have different rules or conventions just because you merge the forums, then the only reason you would get a bad influence is if you're saying that the other group is composed of people incapable of abiding by those rules or conventions; people you'd rather not play in your games. It does strike me as approaching an argument akin to wanting to keep the riff-raff out of your boutique orange shop.

But don't worry, this isn't even remotely my decision, it's just an observation of what the arguments appear like from the outside.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

I just don't think that it's much of an inconvenicne to have two internet tabs open, compared to one internet tab.

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

I'm one of the few IOT Old Guard that has actively been with the series pretty much from its inception, and I recall clearly that in its early days IOT was derided as functionally a NES clone. Some months ago, I wrote an editorial about the state of the community, and Terrance888 offered an almost identical discussion that occurred in NES in 2007. So the evolution of both games occurred in roughly the same pattern. At the bare-bones mechanic level, IOT and NES are completely interchangeable; in fact, back in the early days the reason I preferred IOT was because it seemed less mechanically rigid than the front page NESes. So much for games over writing.

What detractors on both sides claim to be deep-rooted differences are really little more than attempts to justify continued segregation of what are, functionally, identical projects. Hell, I remember that once upon a time we seemed downright desperate to distinguish ourselves from NES. I know all the arguments backwards and forwards (most of which were repeated by the usual suspects in my op-ed), but I have yet to see anyone provide clear and concrete examples of how the games are empirically different. The only idiosyncrasy that I've noticed is that in-game interaction is on average more streamlined and faster-paced in IOT, whereas the NES standard reads like chapters out of a textbook.

At the end of the day, the arguments against a merger are rooted in what amounts to class prejudice: NES is for prigs and IOT for chavs. I am well aware of the problem players on our side, but I dare anyone to claim that NES is without its share of troublemakers. As stated before, most IOTs are structured around faster exchanges than their NES counterparts, with the result that roleplay tends to be short memos rather than sprawling passages, but the current player base is quite capable of crafting either; see the Iron and Blood series or Robert Can't's Spirit of Man for examples.

I don't have any issues with the games or playing style. The questions that come to my mind are: . . .

1. Possibly, but honestly I doubt it to be significant either statistically or in any practical sense. I mean, the number of times I've been astounded by just how young some CFCers actually are when I thought they were grizzled vets...

2. Because Attila the IOTer is a boogeyman constructed to perpetuate segregationist attitudes, as is his counterpart, Genghis NES.

3. Historically, that's what communities do.

4. I don't think the front page is as much of an issue as people make it out to be. IOT only has on average about three to five active games; it'll hardly crowd everything out.

5. As stated before, you already manage both forums separately. Theoretically it would be easier if they were in one convenient location. Plus you might finally join an IOT.

6. Depends on the particular persons.

7. As much as the United Kingdom erased its constituent countries.

8. Unless someone can present to me evidence that group a) is so different from group b) that they both can't be called human, I don't see how bringing together two communities of creatively-minded persons will do anything but enhance the atmosphere. Plus it might help crack NES' reputation for elitism.

 

[Joecoolyo]

I'm one of the few IOT Old Guard that has actively been with the series pretty much from its inception, and I recall clearly that in its early days IOT was derided as functionally a NES clone. Some months ago, I wrote an editorial about the state of the community, and Terrance888 offered an almost identical discussion that occurred in NES in 2007. So the evolution of both games occurred in roughly the same pattern. At the bare-bones mechanic level, IOT and NES are completely interchangeable; in fact, back in the early days the reason I preferred IOT was because it seemed less mechanically rigid than the front page NESes. So much for games over writing.

What detractors on both sides claim to be deep-rooted differences are really little more than attempts to justify continued segregation of what are, functionally, identical projects. Hell, I remember that once upon a time we seemed downright desperate to distinguish ourselves from NES. I know all the arguments backwards and forwards (most of which were repeated by the usual suspects in my op-ed), but I have yet to see anyone provide clear and concrete examples of how the games are empirically different. The only idiosyncrasy that I've noticed is that in-game interaction is on average more streamlined and faster-paced in IOT, whereas the NES standard reads like chapters out of a textbook.

At the end of the day, the arguments against a merger are rooted in what amounts to class prejudice: NES is for prigs and IOT for chavs. I am well aware of the problem players on our side, but I dare anyone to claim that NES is without its share of troublemakers. As stated before, most IOTs are structured around faster exchanges than their NES counterparts, with the result that roleplay tends to be short memos rather than sprawling passages, but the current player base is quite capable of crafting either; see the Iron and Blood series or Robert Can't's Spirit of Man for examples.


1. Possibly, but honestly I doubt it to be significant either statistically or in any practical sense. I mean, the number of times I've been astounded by just how young some CFCers actually are when I thought they were grizzled vets...

2. Because Attila the IOTer is a boogeyman constructed to perpetuate segregationist attitudes, as is his counterpart, Genghis NES.

3. Historically, that's what communities do.

4. I don't think the front page is as much of an issue as people make it out to be. IOT only has on average about three to five active games; it'll hardly crowd everything out.

5. As stated before, you already manage both forums separately. Theoretically it would be easier if they were in one convenient location. Plus you might finally join an IOT.

6. Depends on the particular persons.

7. As much as the United Kingdom erased its constituent countries.

8. Unless someone can present to me evidence that group a) is so different from group b) that they both can't be called human, I don't see how bringing together two communities of creatively-minded persons will do anything but enhance the atmosphere. Plus it might help crack NES' reputation for elitism.

As a fellow old guard, I endorse this post whole-heartedly. Most, if not all divisions between the two are artificial, and the two "game types" share a large amount of things in common. A merge would have no detrimental effects on either, and instead promote a larger more active community.

So once again, I say merge them.

 

[Terrance888]

Merge'em.

 

[Luckymoose]

I don't believe my comment does suggest both ways. I'm saying that neither IOTs nor NESes need change at all with a merge, but that there'd be cross-pollination of players, just as mafia players play NOTWs, and NOTW players play mafia games.

Say you have an apple shop, and an orange shop (although a better analogy would be Navels and Valenicas). Okay, you can currently access both the apples and oranges, but that's quite an inconvenience, so you'll get people either exclusively buying apples or exclusively buying oranges. Say the shops are merged. This does not mean you are forced to eat fruit salad, or that the apples and oranges merge into some sort of new fruit halfway between the two. If the apple buyers try out some oranges, it doesn't mean they'll eat the skin. The quality of the apples and oranges has not changed, it's just that now people can access both, and you'd expect more people to try out apples, and more people to try out oranges. If the shop is big enough, it'll bring in customers who wouldn't have gone to either of the small boutique shops.

If it's accepted that the games themselves don't have to have different rules or conventions just because you merge the forums, then the only reason you would get a bad influence is if you're saying that the other group is composed of people incapable of abiding by those rules or conventions; people you'd rather not play in your games. It does strike me as approaching an argument akin to wanting to keep the riff-raff out of your boutique orange shop.

But don't worry, this isn't even remotely my decision, it's just an observation of what the arguments appear like from the outside.

I think it is more akin to putting peanut butter and jelly into one jar as opposed to two. Sure, it is convenient to do so, but the final product is inferior to the former two. What you seem to be suggesting, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you have no idea what IOT or NESes are actually like and think that putting two large communities into one pool will somehow not cause issues? We have issues with the less mature IOT crowd all the time. IOT does not have issues with NESers, as we simply don't go there. You're opening a can of worms if you combined the two and the none of us will have any fun.

As Iggy stated, there is no reason for a merger other. Having two tabs open is simple. I, however, am stating that if you want to play IOTs, and the type of gaming ethos that calls for, do it somewhere else. It isn't hard to just go play over there. We don't allow NOTW in our forum either.

The IOT community is afraid of dying based on a dry spell. NESing has had dry spells for eleven years. We always come out of it fine. What we have here isn't IOTers wanting to merge for the betterment of the NES community, but for the safety of their own. And trust me, if this goes forward IOTs will die. You will lose your community to our own. But the struggle is something I do not want to see my hobby put through in the interim.

 

[Double A]

We have issues with the less mature IOT crowd all the time.

Because maturity is quantifiable objectively, and absolutely no one thinks elitism is immature.

We don't allow NOTW in our forum either.

We should form a club of all the forums that don't allow NOTW.

The IOT community is afraid of dying based on a dry spell. NESing has had dry spells for eleven years. We always come out of it fine. What we have here isn't IOTers wanting to merge for the betterment of the NES community, but for the safety of their own.

I don't think anyone seriously believes IOT is in any danger, and I haven't actually even heard the shortage of games discussed on chat.

And trust me, if this goes forward IOTs will die. You will lose your community to our own. But the struggle is something I do not want to see my hobby put through in the interim.

I refuse to trust you on grounds of NOTW and mafia still being noticeably different things.

 

[Luckymoose]

Because maturity is quantifiable objectively, and absolutely no one thinks elitism is immature.

Christos roaming around in our games calling everyone bigots, idiots, etc. and systematically refusing to learn or adapt to the rules. There have been others on the same level, including yourself in Capto Iugulum. We're not being elitists. We just disapprove of this kind of crap.

We should form a club of all the forums that don't allow NOTW.

Good, we should. Let's include forums that don't allow IOTs in them on the grounds that IOTs and NOTW are more similar to each other than to NESes. Okay?

I don't think anyone seriously believes IOT is in any danger, and I haven't actually even heard the shortage of games discussed on chat.

All of the instigators of this merger topic have been railing on about this exact issue.

I refuse to trust you on grounds of NOTW and mafia still being noticeably different things.

They are the same thing with different settings. IOTs are not NESes with different settings. IOTs are an entire genre of games unto themselves that is not on the level of seriousness or depth that NESing strives to be.

We're different, man. Just agree to disagree and we'll both go back to our subforums happier.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Plus how many guys do you know that react perfectly rationally to getting backstabbed? Do people just chortle, slap their knee, and say "Off with ye then, ya scamp!"

"Good one! See you next game" was the standard reaction in my waraming/gaming groups (Live in primative BICG* times), Player who reacted badly would be unmercifully needled into an attitude adjustment, and regular bad reactors would run out of gaming opportunities. Being in person live does tend to reinforce different ethics than the net does.
As a strategic matter, getting help from third parties was not helped by raising a fuss; it was a matter of 1. current strategies and balance of power, 2. preexisting relationships and favor inside the current game 3. preexisting relationships and favors outside the current game


*BeforeInternetComputorGames

 

[Grisu]

"Good one! See you next game" was the standard reaction in my waraming/gaming groups (Live in primative BICG* times), Player who reacted badly would be unmercifully needled into an attitude adjustment, and regular bad reactors would run out of gaming opportunities. Being in person live does tend to reinforce different ethics than the net does.
As a strategic matter, getting help from third parties was not helped by raising a fuss; it was a matter of 1. current strategies and balance of power, 2. preexisting relationships and favor inside the current game 3. preexisting relationships and favors outside the current game


*BeforeInternetComputorGames

yeah, but apparently that was before the world has moved on

 

[Tsoate]

Those bickering about backstabbing need to play Neptune's Pride.

 

[ChiefDesigner]

"Good one! See you next game" was the standard reaction in my waraming/gaming groups (Live in primative BICG* times), Player who reacted badly would be unmercifully needled into an attitude adjustment, and regular bad reactors would run out of gaming opportunities. Being in person live does tend to reinforce different ethics than the net does.
As a strategic matter, getting help from third parties was not helped by raising a fuss; it was a matter of 1. current strategies and balance of power, 2. preexisting relationships and favor inside the current game 3. preexisting relationships and favors outside the current game


*BeforeInternetComputorGames

Quoted for truth.

 

[Tsoate]

Player who reacted badly would be unmercifully needled into an attitude adjustment, and regular bad reactors would run out of gaming opportunities.

Such action has been outlawed in NESing by you good mods. We have to accept all with open arms again and again.. apparently.

 

[Angst]

Luckymoose, your inflammatory comments are not helping anyone. You're perfectly aware of yourself sporadically claiming IOTers to be "immature" while claiming "hey I'm just pointing out the differences, just agree to disagree brah" and "it's you who dares to call NESers elitist" to save your own rhethorical butt. It's rude, condescending and not productive for this discussion.

 

[Luckymoose]

Luckymoose, your inflammatory comments are not helping anyone. You're perfectly aware of yourself sporadically claiming IOTers to be "immature" while claiming "hey I'm just pointing out the differences, just agree to disagree brah" and "it's you who dares to call NESers elitist" to save your own rhethorical butt. It's rude, condescending and not productive for this discussion.

To be fair, I'm absolutely, irrevocably right.

 

[spryllino]

Plus it might help crack NES' reputation for elitism.

Elitism is a factor that improves the quality of our games, encourages players to improve and develop in their cooperative efforts to make better stories, and contributes to our enjoyment of them. We don't want our elitism cracked. Why can't we just be left alone to be elitist with anyone who wants to join in our elitist activity too? You don't want to be elitist; so why are you intent on merging into a forum that you consider - probably reasonably correctly - to be full of elitists?

As I've already said, I still can't see why so many IOTers are so intent on merging with us when we don't want to merge with them. It really is rather like trying to make someone share a house with you who has repeatedly and explicitly said they don't want to share a house with you...

 

[Terrance888]

I want to share. I want to care.