[RD] Abortion, once again
- Thread starter Angst
- Start date
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
wasn't talking about you at all. it's common that (male) lawmakers against abortions make some pretty basic mistakes about pregnancy that they'd understand just asking a woman or a doctor.
but ok, you brought yourself up. the fact that you protude out of this in this particular way is... i'm not sure if you think this was a good thing to write. i'm not sure how to put it. this is not how you do a snide snipe pretending to look like an idiot to make a point. this is how you look like an idiot.
i'd like to be helpful, but i've tried with you before, and you refuse. so idk
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Actually, there are some people sufficiently ignorant that it's scary. I saw one guy on CBC (the news site I read) say in the comments that he wanted his precious, innocent daughter kept away from such nasty things like sex education and didn't see a need to tell her anything until she was about 14.
I informed him that he could be a grandfather if he waited that long.
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
in denmark, where i believe sex education is insufficient (and bluntly, it varies by some schools), in my schooling, we got basic information about what sex and pregnancy entails at a basic level at the EDIT: beginning of primary school (age 8 ish? - we saw a child-friendly cartoon, i remember; i made an edit because i was unsure of the particular age. but it was early; EDIT2: found the cartoon on youtube, a user confirmed my own memory, watching the cartoon in kindergarten class, age 6-7. the cartoon is thoroughly innocent but has a short section of drawn adults boinking - yes - so i probably can't share it here due to forum rules lmao)
anyways, not editing more in, did a line break for some semblance of reader sanity. so - we have running education about web etiquette to protect against predators throughout primary school (which i mentioned because it entails a basic notion of what sex is), and detailed sex education (biology, sexuality, masturbation, what is and isn't safe (stds), some superfluous notes on basic behavior in bed) starts around age 12. there's still some stuff i wasn't explained very well, so here's one embarassing side story from my wee self; i'll admit i simply didn't understand after sex education, how you could have more than one child, since the man was bound to run out of sperm, no? the woman had limited eggs, so i had the idea of the man just having a set amount of semen, i mean, it couldn't just materialize, could it? i also had a poor understanding of transgenderedness, which is bluntly important since it regards sexual dimorphism, but at least they covered the base ideas of straight, gay, bi (without well explaining the spectrum qualities to either).
anyways, the particular mistake was kind of on me, although there were a few glaring holes in missed details for me personally beyond that. i believe danish education is insufficient and should cover more. at least there were some good attempts at some places; having us ask anonymous questions to each other in class about things we were curious about (although admittedly that was kind of a problem too because we were still 12 and usually didn't know squat to explain, which can cause misinformation), and we had two high school students coming over our class that we could ask anonymously too (high school in denmark is 16-18, the aoc is 15 and people that date are usually sexually active around then - sidenote, that was a better idea than the former class-directed anonymous question thing).
some of the states' sex education is horrifying from my perspective. i don't know much about canada. what's the state of things there?
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Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
this is horrifying. and part of why i think sex education in denmark, which starts at 12, isn't expansive enough. we have less issues of teenage pregnancy here than the states, but we have to start sex ed at puberty, or slightly before.
I honestly don't know how sex education is done here now. I'm 59 years old, and the two times I was part of a sex ed. class were in 1974 and 1976. I was 10 at the time of the 1974 session. That's close to half a century ago and there is so much more knowledge now and society has become so much more open about discussing it. Absolutely nothing remotely LGBT was covered, and the only people we could ask anonymous questions of were the health unit nurses or female teachers who were running these sessions.
That said... I did have one pregnant classmate, and the father turned out to be her cousin. They did marry, and... just yikes. She must have slept through whatever sex ed. class she would have had in elementary school (my own elementary-level class was at a different school). Funny in a sad way that religion was a big part of their family life... I guess human nature never read the bible.
The contingent of parents against sex ed in school have this ridiculous notion that it's a pro-LGBT agenda in that the teachers are pushing the kids into a "lifestyle" choice, not having the first clue that LGBT is a matter of how the person is born, not how they choose to be. Sad to say, there are an awful lot of ignorant people here.
What is wrong with these people?
https://www.huffpost.com/author/roque-planas
By
Roque Plant
Jan 17, 2023, 07:03 PM EST
AUSTIN, Texas — A Texas Republican wants to make foods containing material from aborted human fetuses “clearly and conspicuously labeled” — even though such products do not exist.
The proposed law, authored by state Sen. Bob Hall, says food and medicine would have to be labeled if it contained or was manufactured with human fetal tissue or if it was the product of research that used such tissue. The bill defines human fetal tissue as “tissue, cells, or organs obtained from an aborted unborn child.”
“Unfortunately, many Texans are unknowingly consuming products that either contain human fetal parts or were developed using human fetal parts,” read a statement from Hall’s office. “While some may not be bothered by this, there are many Texans with religious or moral beliefs that would oppose consumption or use of these products.”
The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) does not allow the sale of foods containing human tissue. “There are no conditions under which the FDA would consider human fetal tissue to be safe or legal for human or animal consumption,” an agency spokesperson wrote in an email to HuffPost.
A single group of cells from a human embryo can be cultured thousands of times for many years. Several of the cell lines most widely used by researchers today were created decades ago. Controversies over such cell lines stretch back to at least the 1970s when battles over abortion led to both state laws and federal regulations curtailing the use of aborted fetuses to cultivate fetal tissue and cell lines. Anti-abortion groups — most notably Children of God For Life — have often called for boycotts of companies like Neucutis and Senomyx over their use of HEK 293 cells in research and development. The HEK 293 cell line originally traces back to kidney cells obtained from either an abortion or miscarriage in the 1970s, according to Reuters. The cells have been used hundreds of thousands of times over the last half-century. Neucutis acknowledged using the cell line to develop a skincare product. In addition, Senomyx used the cells to conduct millions of tests on flavor enhancers used in its products without using human taste testers, according to CBS News.
Catholic leaders and anti-abortion groups have objected to using HEK 293 cells and other human-derived cell lines in COVID-19 vaccine research and testing. However, the Vatican ultimately determined they were “morally acceptable.” The most commonly administered COVID-19 vaccines made by Moderna, Pfizer and Johnson and Johnson were all tested using fetal cell lines before being used on humans. The FDA has tried to play down concerns about using embryonic cell lines in COVID-19 vaccine research. A spokesperson noted, “fetal tissue used to establish the cell culture lines was obtained decades ago, and no new fetal tissue is needed to produce cell lines to make the vaccines.” But Hall contends that many of his constituents view using such cells as a “matter of conscience” and should be clearly disclosed.
“A well-informed consumer can make whatever choice they decide on purchasing a product so long as they have all of the information in hand to make the choice,” Hall wrote in an email to HuffPost. An Oklahoma Republican filed a similar bill, which would have banned food made from aborted fetuses, in 2012, but the legislature did not pass it. “I don’t know if it is happening in Oklahoma, it may be, it may not be,” Oklahoma state Sen. Ralph Shortey, the bill’s author, said at the time. “What I am saying is that if it does happen, then we are not going to allow it to manufacture here.”
Food containing human fetal tissue — which, again, does not exist — could meet the definition of cannibalism, which no federal law criminalizes and most states do not regulate.
Texas Republican Wants Food Made Of Aborted Fetuses Labeled
Such foods do not exist.https://www.huffpost.com/author/roque-planas
By
Roque Plant
Jan 17, 2023, 07:03 PM EST
AUSTIN, Texas — A Texas Republican wants to make foods containing material from aborted human fetuses “clearly and conspicuously labeled” — even though such products do not exist.
The proposed law, authored by state Sen. Bob Hall, says food and medicine would have to be labeled if it contained or was manufactured with human fetal tissue or if it was the product of research that used such tissue. The bill defines human fetal tissue as “tissue, cells, or organs obtained from an aborted unborn child.”
“Unfortunately, many Texans are unknowingly consuming products that either contain human fetal parts or were developed using human fetal parts,” read a statement from Hall’s office. “While some may not be bothered by this, there are many Texans with religious or moral beliefs that would oppose consumption or use of these products.”
The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) does not allow the sale of foods containing human tissue. “There are no conditions under which the FDA would consider human fetal tissue to be safe or legal for human or animal consumption,” an agency spokesperson wrote in an email to HuffPost.
Controversial Cells
The bill, which Hall filed on behalf of a constituent, marks one of the latest eruptions of recurring controversies over the scientific use of cell lines, which can be derived from aborted or miscarried fetuses. Scientists routinely use such cells for research and experimentation, but they are not used as food additives.A single group of cells from a human embryo can be cultured thousands of times for many years. Several of the cell lines most widely used by researchers today were created decades ago. Controversies over such cell lines stretch back to at least the 1970s when battles over abortion led to both state laws and federal regulations curtailing the use of aborted fetuses to cultivate fetal tissue and cell lines. Anti-abortion groups — most notably Children of God For Life — have often called for boycotts of companies like Neucutis and Senomyx over their use of HEK 293 cells in research and development. The HEK 293 cell line originally traces back to kidney cells obtained from either an abortion or miscarriage in the 1970s, according to Reuters. The cells have been used hundreds of thousands of times over the last half-century. Neucutis acknowledged using the cell line to develop a skincare product. In addition, Senomyx used the cells to conduct millions of tests on flavor enhancers used in its products without using human taste testers, according to CBS News.
Sweeping Impact Across The Medical Industry
The Texas bill would have little effect on the food industry since cell lines aren’t used as food ingredients, but it could have a major impact on the medical field. The law would require labeling any medical product “derived from research using human fetal tissue.” This broad wording could apply to a vast array of vaccines and medicines, from polio to HIV treatments. “Human fetal tissue is used quite a lot in research,” one geneticist, who declined to be identified to avoid associating their institution with political debates about abortion, told HuffPost. “There’s no way to cleanly draw a line between the experiment that directly led to the product and the line of research that enabled that to happen.”Catholic leaders and anti-abortion groups have objected to using HEK 293 cells and other human-derived cell lines in COVID-19 vaccine research and testing. However, the Vatican ultimately determined they were “morally acceptable.” The most commonly administered COVID-19 vaccines made by Moderna, Pfizer and Johnson and Johnson were all tested using fetal cell lines before being used on humans. The FDA has tried to play down concerns about using embryonic cell lines in COVID-19 vaccine research. A spokesperson noted, “fetal tissue used to establish the cell culture lines was obtained decades ago, and no new fetal tissue is needed to produce cell lines to make the vaccines.” But Hall contends that many of his constituents view using such cells as a “matter of conscience” and should be clearly disclosed.
“A well-informed consumer can make whatever choice they decide on purchasing a product so long as they have all of the information in hand to make the choice,” Hall wrote in an email to HuffPost. An Oklahoma Republican filed a similar bill, which would have banned food made from aborted fetuses, in 2012, but the legislature did not pass it. “I don’t know if it is happening in Oklahoma, it may be, it may not be,” Oklahoma state Sen. Ralph Shortey, the bill’s author, said at the time. “What I am saying is that if it does happen, then we are not going to allow it to manufacture here.”
Food containing human fetal tissue — which, again, does not exist — could meet the definition of cannibalism, which no federal law criminalizes and most states do not regulate.
EgonSpengler
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Ignorance has to be a big factor. The people attacking education may not have been thinking of this specific scenario (although, who knows? maybe they were), but this is the type of thing they're aiming for. A very stupid populace is essential to authoritarians of all stripes, including the US Republican Party of the last ~50 years. They need people to be afraid and gullible, and ready with an undefined sense of indignation, ready to be manipulated. Can't have them thinking and understanding.
In the instance of a politician doing something like this, it's hard to know whether they themselves are that stupid, or they're the one relying on everyone else being that stupid. Like when Mitch McConnell came into the Senate with a snowball in his hand as a refutation of global warming, or when Mitch McConnell said a President isn't allowed to nominate a Supreme Court justice in the last year of his term, or when Mitch McConnell said that Citizens United v. FEC was about the First Amendment. I can't tell whether he really believes all that bull[stink], but it's kind of academic; what's crucial is that enough people believe it. The Neo-Cons conjuring the invasion of Iraq out of thin air in 2002-2003 is another good example. I wondered at the time, and I may never find out, if George W. Bush actually thought the donkey-turds he served us were true, but either way, it worked like a charm: The American people ate them up with a spoon and asked for seconds. It took a long time and a lot of work to set that up.
This is what is going on in my province now.
EgonSpengler
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Yeah, sadly, it ain't just an American thing. If we went back 3000 years, we'd probably find Ramses telling his people that the Hittites caused the big drought or something.
So if the research used cells from a foetus that never got past a ball of cells then it needs labelling, but if it came from a full grown adult who had no say in the process, it is OK?
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
i want to propose a law that ban aliens from playing basketball
and i guess in texas it might actually *** pass
yea, a few republican laws work like this - overempathizing potential threats and making rigid legislation about it that hit few, if anyone at all. i don't want to derail the threads, but i might as well bring up trans bathroom stuff. let's legislate about something that isn't happening in case it actually happens - and it never will - simply because we don't understand it, and don't trust it.
and i guess in texas it might actually *** pass
yea, a few republican laws work like this - overempathizing potential threats and making rigid legislation about it that hit few, if anyone at all. i don't want to derail the threads, but i might as well bring up trans bathroom stuff. let's legislate about something that isn't happening in case it actually happens - and it never will - simply because we don't understand it, and don't trust it.
There is an interesting related question posed by recent research using artificial embryos made from induced pluripotent stem cells, probably adult skin cells. Presented in video format by nature:
‘Artificial embryos’: the hidden steps in forming a spine
New models called axioloids offer insight into development of vertebrae in humans.
Somitogenesis is the process by which segmented body structures like vertebrae form in embryos. While the process is well understood in animals like mice or zebrafish it is difficult to study in humans.
But now, researchers have created a model of somitogenesis, using pluripotent stem cells, called an axioloid.
The researchers hope that this new platform will allow them to better study human development and the diseases that can arise when it is disrupted.
‘Artificial embryos’: the hidden steps in forming a spine
New models called axioloids offer insight into development of vertebrae in humans.
Somitogenesis is the process by which segmented body structures like vertebrae form in embryos. While the process is well understood in animals like mice or zebrafish it is difficult to study in humans.
But now, researchers have created a model of somitogenesis, using pluripotent stem cells, called an axioloid.
The researchers hope that this new platform will allow them to better study human development and the diseases that can arise when it is disrupted.
I have been saying for years, every scratched skin cell is a human life that could be incubated into becoming a human being if it was only given enough medical resources.
If this causes dissonance, just cryogenically freeze any of the scrapings and then put them aside and protected instead of leaving them to die of exposure after being flicked into the air
If this causes dissonance, just cryogenically freeze any of the scrapings and then put them aside and protected instead of leaving them to die of exposure after being flicked into the air
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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it's certainly a good argument to demonstrate internal inconsistency of early 1st trimester abortion bans. after that, you're back to the usual dilemma of determining when something legally becomes human.
Pro-abortion rights advocates sue over state pill restrictions
Supporters of abortion rights in the United States have filed separate lawsuits on Wednesday challenging two states’ abortion pill restrictions, the opening salvo in what is expected to be a protracted legal battle over access to the medications.
The lawsuits argue that limits on the drugs in North Carolina and West Virginia run afoul of the federal authority of the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA), which has approved the abortion pill as a safe and effective method for ending pregnancy.
The cases were brought by a North Carolina physician who prescribes the pill, mifepristone, and the company GenBioPro, which makes a generic version of the drug and sued in West Virginia.
“West Virginia cannot override the FDA’s safety and efficacy determinations, nor can it disrupt the national market for this medication,” David Frederick, a lawyer representing GenBioPro, said in a statement.
The lawsuit — filed by Dr Amy Bryant, an obstetrician and gynaecologist — argues that such requirements contradict FDA-approved labelling for the drug and interfere with her ability to treat patients.
“We know from years of research and use that medication abortion is safe and effective — there’s no medical reason for politicians to interfere or restrict access to it,” Bryant said in a statement provided by the Expanding Medication Abortion Access project, a pro-abortion rights group working on legal challenges to state laws.
Supporters of abortion rights in the United States have filed separate lawsuits on Wednesday challenging two states’ abortion pill restrictions, the opening salvo in what is expected to be a protracted legal battle over access to the medications.
The lawsuits argue that limits on the drugs in North Carolina and West Virginia run afoul of the federal authority of the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA), which has approved the abortion pill as a safe and effective method for ending pregnancy.
The cases were brought by a North Carolina physician who prescribes the pill, mifepristone, and the company GenBioPro, which makes a generic version of the drug and sued in West Virginia.
“West Virginia cannot override the FDA’s safety and efficacy determinations, nor can it disrupt the national market for this medication,” David Frederick, a lawyer representing GenBioPro, said in a statement.
The lawsuit — filed by Dr Amy Bryant, an obstetrician and gynaecologist — argues that such requirements contradict FDA-approved labelling for the drug and interfere with her ability to treat patients.
“We know from years of research and use that medication abortion is safe and effective — there’s no medical reason for politicians to interfere or restrict access to it,” Bryant said in a statement provided by the Expanding Medication Abortion Access project, a pro-abortion rights group working on legal challenges to state laws.
