About christ paying for our sins to save us from hell.

[Eukaryote]

Don't anybody here get me wrong, I think Jesus was crucified, died, and on the third day he rose agian and then later he ascended into heaven.

However, I have a problem with the statement: "When Jesus was crucified he was punished for all our sins, past, present, and future. It is only through accepting this payment that we can be saved from hell."

So if you agree with that statement, awnser these questions please:

-Why does paying for someone else sins redeem them even though they didn’t pay the price?

-Why is paying for someone else’s sin just? If it isn’t, why is God being unjust?

-How can you pay for future sins when they haven’t happened yet?

-Why is Jesus’ payment for billions, trillions, or even quadrillions of people’s sins finite (great, but finite) when if we don’t accect this payment we have to make the infinite payment of eternal damnation just for our own sins?

-Why does anybody have to pay for our sins anyway?

-This only applies to a few of you but: Why are you not open minded to what you believe being wrong even though there is so much logic against it?

 

[JZ_UK]

One could just ask why if Christ is god did he need to play out the whole game anyway?

Why lift these "sins" why not just do away with the idea all together... its not like god can't do something like that is it?

 

[El_Machinae]

The jewish tradition required blood rituals to cover/wash away sins in front of God. The Christian ritual makes more sense in that light.

 

[JohnRM]

It all still sounds a little thin, anyway.

 

[FriendlyFire]

One could just ask why if Christ is god did he need to play out the whole game anyway?

Why lift these "sins" why not just do away with the idea all together... its not like god can't do something like that is it?

Has to do with choices of free will. The "alternative" would be the acceptance of Jesus teaching and acknowleding him as divine savior. Instead of rejection ,accusations of herecy and putting him to death. (Might I add by the powerful and corrupt religous authorities)

Bibilcally it was lucifiers love which drove him to give mankind knowledge and sentience (sp?). (Freewill) Ultimately theological debate at that time pointed to divine plan for the eventual return and salvation of mankind back to God as sentiant beings. Though it becomes a kind of orthadox teaching through the ages and most christains remain ignorant of it theologies behind many such belifs.

Personally I prefer historical and spritual explanation

 

[Moonsinger]

Don't anybody here get me wrong, I think Jesus was crucified, died, and on the third day he rose agian and then later he ascended into heaven.

So we are told by his devoted followers.

However, I have a problem with the statement: "When Jesus was crucified he was punished for all our sins, past, present, and future. It is only through accepting this payment that we can be saved from hell."

Again, we are told by his devoted followers.

-Why does paying for someone else sins redeem them even though they didn’t pay the price?

-Why is paying for someone else’s sin just? If it isn’t, why is God being unjust?

We see this happen every day. People are willing to sacrifice their lives for their love ones all the time. For example, parents going to jail for crimes committed by their children. God died for your sins because he love you.

]-How can you pay for future sins when they haven’t happened yet?

For God, there is really no past, present, or future. Just like the worm-hole alien (The Prophet) in Star Trek DS9, past, present, and future is really the same for them. Furthermore, if there is a God, he has to exist in a different dimension than ours.

-Why is Jesus’ payment for billions, trillions, or even quadrillions of people’s sins finite (great, but finite) when if we don’t accect this payment we have to make the infinite payment of eternal damnation just for our own sins?

-Why does anybody have to pay for our sins anyway?

-This only applies to a few of you but: Why are you not open minded to what you believe being wrong even though there is so much logic against it?

Do you dare to challenge what the Bible say? Not to mention for your lack of faith! For the record, the Bible is just a collection of books written by humans of fresh and blood just like us. Moreover, the Bible was a chosen collection of books approved by the Church. What did the Church did to the rest of books that they deemed anti-God or not speaking in God best interests? They destroyed them, of course. What do you expect? Thanks to their book burning activities in those days, now, we can't hear the other side of those stories.

Btw, what if The Lord of the Rings is the only set of books that survived doomsday? Someone probably will call it a holly book and build a religion around it too.

 

[Swedishguy]

Don't anybody here get me wrong, I think Jesus was crucified, died, and on the third day he rose agian and then later he ascended into heaven.

Good that we have cleared that up. But that means that this:

However, I have a problem with the statement: "When Jesus was crucified he was punished for all our sins, past, present, and future. It is only through accepting this payment that we can be saved from hell."

So if you agree with that statement, awnser these questions please:

-Why does paying for someone else sins redeem them even though they didn’t pay the price?

-Why is paying for someone else’s sin just? If it isn’t, why is God being unjust?

-How can you pay for future sins when they haven’t happened yet?

-Why is Jesus’ payment for billions, trillions, or even quadrillions of people’s sins finite (great, but finite) when if we don’t accect this payment we have to make the infinite payment of eternal damnation just for our own sins?

-Why does anybody have to pay for our sins anyway?

-This only applies to a few of you but: Why are you not open minded to what you believe being wrong even though there is so much logic against it?

Is nonsense.

Come over to the good side!

 

[JohnRM]

If Christ was punished and stricken with pain for the sins of humanity, then it must have hurt like a bicth.

 

[Quasar1011]

-Why does paying for someone else sins redeem them even though they didn’t pay the price?

In the Book of Ruth, God sets up the concept of Kinsman-Redeemer. Only a relative could redeem another. This means that, according to His own law, in order to redeem mankind, God would have to become a man! And that is exactly what He did, as Jesus Christ.

Galatians 4:4-6
But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

Redemption is all about the family relationship. God wanted to expand His family, and gain more sons. He already had one unique Son in Jesus Christ, but He wanted to adopt many more sons. In this way, think of redempion as the purchase price for adoption.

-Why is paying for someone else’s sin just? If it isn’t, why is God being unjust?

Not just anyone could pay for a person's sin. An innocent substitute was necessary, according to Mosaic law. Uh oh, we have a problem:

Hebrews 10:4
because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Again, a kinsman-redeemer is necessary to take away the sins of man. But no man could be found who was worthy; that is, totally innocent! Until Jesus came along, that is.

1st Corinthians 5:7
Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

The Old Testament sacrifices pointed to the one greater sacrifice that would be made. So why was God just in having Christ pay for our sins? Because God was willing to pay the price of redemption, in order to gain more children. An exchange was made at the cross: Christ took the sins of mankind upon Himself, paying for them, while giving those who would believe in Him His righteousness:

Romans 4:24-25
"but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification."

-How can you pay for future sins when they haven’t happened yet?

God already exists in the future, which is why this can be said about Him:

Romans 4:17
"As it is written: 'I have made you a father of many nations.' He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were."

-Why is Jesus’ payment for billions, trillions, or even quadrillions of people’s sins finite (great, but finite) when if we don’t accect this payment we have to make the infinite payment of eternal damnation just for our own sins?

Jesus' sacrifice wasn't finite. God's grace (unmerited favor) is greater than all the sins ever committed.

Romans 5:20
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

-Why does anybody have to pay for our sins anyway?

Have to? Well, God didn't. That He did, shows how much He loves us.

-This only applies to a few of you but: Why are you not open minded to what you believe being wrong even though there is so much logic against it?

Man's logic is faulty; God's ways are perfect.

1st Corinthians 2:13-15
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

For the record, the Bible is just a collection of books written by humans of fresh and blood just like us.

Not exactly. The Bible is a book written by men, yet whose author is God.

2nd Peter 1:21
For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Moreover, the Bible was a chosen collection of books approved by the Church.

The Church did not organize the Bible. God the Holy Spirit did.

What did the Church did to the rest of books that they deemed anti-God or not speaking in God best interests? They destroyed them, of course.

Ever heard of Phaenomena, by Aratus? Next to Homer's Iliad and The Odyssey, Phaenomena is perhaps the 3rd most-important work of ancient Greek literature. We have copies of it today. And the Bible quotes from it!

 

[classical_hero]

Excellent response there Quasar. I will add more after waking up.

 

[puglover]

I agree, Quasar nailed it.

-This only applies to a few of you but: Why are you not open minded to what you believe being wrong even though there is so much logic against it?

What is the context of this question?

Moreover, the Bible was a chosen collection of books approved by the Church. What did the Church did to the rest of books that they deemed anti-God or not speaking in God best interests? They destroyed them, of course. What do you expect? Thanks to their book burning activities in those days, now, we can't hear the other side of those stories.

Btw, what if The Lord of the Rings is the only set of books that survived doomsday? Someone probably will call it a holly book and build a religion around it too.

I wouldn't generalize the church in this way. Many of the "heathen" books survived the Middle Ages, and many of those that were destroyed deserved to be (forgeries of apostolic writings, etc.)

 

[Phlegmak]

If Jesus paid for our sins, then no one should ever need to go to Hell, correct? If that was true, then the book of Revelation seems to have some major flaws.

 

[puglover]

If Jesus paid for our sins, then no one should ever need to go to Hell, correct? If that was true, then the book of Revelation seems to have some major flaws.

What's the point of a debt payment if the debtor refuses it? The penalty applies.

 

[classical_hero]

If Jesus paid for our sins, then no one should ever need to go to Hell, correct? If that was true, then the book of Revelation seems to have some major flaws.

Jesus has paid the price, but we need to accept that he paid the price. If you are not willing to accept that Jesus f[paid for your sins, then you are still in your sins and God cannot accept those that are still in their sins. You need to be reconciled to God for your sins to be paid. That means you are agreeing to the terms that God set out for us to be reconciled to him. You can reject the reconciliation, but that will just mean that you are still an enemy, until you agree to be reconciled
2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Romans 5:8-11But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

 

[El_Machinae]

I think God needs to be reconciled with me, for the sins committed against me. Booyah.

 

[Perfection]

What's the point of a debt payment if the debtor refuses it? The penalty applies.

the debtor doesn't refuse it, the debtor doesn't believe he has a debt and that someone is trying to pay for it.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

But Carol Vorderman says we can consolidate all our debt into one easily manageable monthly repayment package, and she does the sums on Countdown so she knows far more than anyone else about that sort of thing.

 

[El_Machinae]

the debtor doesn't refuse it, the debtor doesn't believe he has a debt and that someone is trying to pay for it.

"You owe money to VISA, but VISA paid your bill! Be grateful"

"Er, I don't have an account with VISA"

 

[puglover]

the debtor doesn't refuse it, the debtor doesn't believe he has a debt and that someone is trying to pay for it.

Believing the debt doesn't exist doesn't make it go away. Try not paying your speeding tickets.

 

[Perfection]

No, but you can't honestly say he refused it.