Alec Baldwin has a point

[Manfred Belheim]

You do not get to tell victims of rape and sexual assault how to feel about that, or how to react to it.

No, but you can judge them for their actions just as you can judge anyone for their actions.

 

[Arwon]

Well yes, it's not illegal for someone to be dickish and have bad opinions

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I do love a spot of faux agreement.

 

[Senethro]

Hmmmm. I wonder if placing the blame for rape on previous rape victims is a facet of rape culture.

 

[Ryika]

Hmmmm. I wonder if placing the blame for rape on previous rape victims is a facet of rape culture.

As if there existed anything in this world that is not a facet of rape culture to you.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

He has a really poorly thought out and wrong point. The most likely result of coming out and saying something, to anyone else in the business, is not being believed and having your career ended.

So the victims had choices - one is to stay silent, take a settlement, and live with the guilt of knowing they didn't say something while others were victimized. Another is to say something, be ignored and/or not believed, have your career ruined and livelihood destroyed, and then have to live with the thought of women continuing to be victimized.

With no legitimate reason to believe they could stop it by speaking out, you can't legitimately say they contributed to allowing this to go on for so long by accepting settlements and staying quiet.

I totally agree with this but where should we place the expectation that people speak out about this kind of thing? I don't think the majority of crimes are stopped because the police are around when they happen. Society requires us to report crimes as they happen and while obviously this was very hard to do for these victims, the point stands that if people had been speaking up earlier the list of victims would be much smaller.

I guess it's fair to blame society as a whole for creating the conditions where victims were prevented from speaking by career pressures. Even still at the very least there were a ton of non-victims who knew what was going on that didn't speak up and that's a problem as well.

It's just a really terrible situation all around.

 

[metalhead]

I guess it's fair to blame society as a whole for creating the conditions where victims were prevented from speaking by career pressures. Even still at the very least there were a ton of non-victims who knew what was going on that didn't speak up and that's a problem as well.

Not just career pressures, but a culture, perhaps worse in Hollywood than elsewhere, that actively avoids holding anyone accountable for that type of behavior.

When you look at what happens to people who speak out, and what doesn't happen to people in power when someone speaks out against them, it's logical for one to conclude that there is no point in speaking out. At least taking some money from Weinstein somehow provides a small deterrent, maybe, in the minds of the victims.

The expectation for speaking out falls on people who can reasonably assume that their speaking out will actually help to stop the predatory behavior. Non-victims like the board members of his company, other power players in Hollywood who knew what was happening but didn't do anything. People for whom there isn't a power imbalance working against them. Those are the ones who need to speak out, and need to be held accountable for not doing so.

 

[Berzerker]

I don't think Arwon is saying that one can't express an opinion. He's just noting that your opinion really comes from an unjustified place based on making a bunch of unseemly insinuations on their motivations instead of having the faintest bit of empathy.

The nature of abuse is that it coerces its continuance by threats. The fact that people react to threats by backing down is human.

If they accepted payments, I wouldn't imagine that it is merely that they caved to selfish financial motivation.

I haven't made assumptions or insinuations about their motives, I'm not a mind reader. Rose McGowan got 100k to keep quiet. She can explain why, but if she criticizes the conspiracy of silence in Hollywood she needs to do it in front of a mirror. And if I was her friend I would have told her to reject the money and speak out if for no other reason than her own peace of mind. Or take the money then speak out and force Weinstein to sue her to get it back. Yes your honor, I'm suing my rape victim because she took my hush money and didn't hush.

What if your wife or daughter was raped by a man and she didn't want to relive her experience over and over and over again in a public spectacle. Would have such an attitude towards her?

Of course not, she didn't take hush money. But I'd still let her know she's gonna feel even worse if she does nothing and the rapist strikes again.

You'd think that... but I've already called the Terrible Opinion Police to come arrest Berzerker because that's a thing that happens and very clearly what I meant.

I think taking money from a rapist in exchange for silence is terrible... You decided I was telling rape victims how they should feel about being raped.

My opinion would be, Alec Baldwin is reacting to being called out himself, and whoever agrees with him are not doing it for the same reason he is. But it makes for a nice ethical discussion. He is not making any point. He is just using an ethical point to shift the focus off of himself, and whoever is siding with him, and is as much to blame as the whole of the tyrannical industry, if it is indeed allowed to be swayed by a tyrant that everyone can now plainly see.

The point of it being a settlement though was not that is was just hush money, and the victim accepted a bribe. It was a legal agreement by a court who is just as implicit in not getting to the bottom of justice. And that is the flaw in our justice system, not a problem with a victim being guilty of failing more victims.

Baldwin got called out after his comment, but I'm not talking about a court settlement - that obviously resulted from the victim's attempt to use the legal process to expose the criminal. I'm talking about 'hush' money - the victim agrees to cash in exchange for silence.

Hmmmm. I wonder if placing the blame for rape on previous rape victims is a facet of rape culture.

If those previous victims accepted hush money and your loved one was raped wouldn't you blame them too? As for rape culture, people take hush money all the time in a variety of situations. They cant tell the world about the bad corporation because they took hush money. If I became a victim of that corporation, I'd also be mad at the victims who kept quiet for money.

the point stands that if people had been speaking up earlier the list of victims would be much smaller.

We criticize Hollywood for enabling rapists, but the enabling starts with accepting hush money... The victims who didn't hush are the people who will be thanked by Weinstein's future would-be victims, not the ones who kept quiet in exchange for cash.

 

[metalhead]

The enabling is not providing a way for women to speak out that will actually stop predatory behavior.

Why would you blame someone for not speaking out, when speaking out isn't going to stop the behavior?

 

[rah]

Do you really believe that all these women coming forward now isn't going to modify future behavior by those accused.

 

[rah]

I find myself torn but in agreement with Berz. Women that kept silent or took hush money are partially to blame for any actions that happened afterwards, BUT as to whether they should feel guilt over it is dependent on two issues.
1. If they were afraid for their livelihood or physical safety, then I can understand and there guilt should be minimal.
2. If they felt that their accusation would have no effect and thought taking the hush money was going to be the only punishment and made themselves believe that it might modify their behavior, I can understand it and it might lessen my guilt, but not as much as number 1 and I would still feel dirty.

No I can't totally identify with these poor women, but I have been offered money before and I didn't take it. Not the same but it's as close as I'm going to get.

 

[metalhead]

Do you really believe that all these women coming forward now isn't going to modify future behavior by those accused.

They came forward now, when doing so actually had a realistic chance of stopping the behavior, in part because the balance of power was no longer working so directly against them.

How can you say they are to blame for the actions of another person? That implies that they did something wrong. I have yet to have anyone explain to me what is wrong about staying silent, when it is reasonable to conclude that speaking out will have no effect? Why are these women expected to have martyred themselves professionally when doing so would not have stopped the behavior, to the point they share culpability?

Really, that makes no sense. "You couldn't have stopped this, but you are partly to blame for it happening." Huh??

 

[rah]

You obviously then didn't read my post because I agreed with a lot of what you just said.

The only real difference is that silence regardless of the justification led to more attacks, there can be no denying that. Guilt is something totally different.

 

[Lexicus]

I just find it in extremely poor taste for dudes to sit here on the internet criticizing the behavior of rape/sexual assault victims. Your opinions are just not welcome or helpful.

 

[metalhead]

The only real difference is that silence regardless of the justification led to more attacks, there can be no denying that. Guilt is something totally different.

Sure there is denying that. What led to more attacks was Weinstein being a disgusting human being. The fact that people who were powerless to stop him didn't stop him didn't lead to anything.

The women probably all feel at least some measure of guilt over it, I get that. But as far as moral culpability is concerned, they have none.

 

[Lexicus]

Oh hey, look what turned up in my newsfeed, almost as if on cue
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...paign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=202807

When women started telling their stories of sexual harassment and assault by Harvey Weinstein, many talked about the fear they had of him. Likewise, some journalists spoke of the pressure the powerful film executive had applied on them or their bosses to quash reports of his misconduct.

Now a new report by Ronan Farrow, published Monday evening in The New Yorker, shows that Weinstein hired "an army of spies" to investigate the women who were considering speaking out and the journalists who were digging into the allegations.

Though Farrow lays out the details plainly, it still reads like an espionage thriller. It involves multiple "international high-level corporate intelligence firms, using very aggressive tactics," Farrow told NPR.

One firm's tactics included "targeting women, targeting journalists," Farrow said. "Showing up in their lives using fake identities. Using fake companies as a front. This was detailed, this was aggressive, and according to the women I spoke to — this was terrifying."

In light of this I feel like the arguments being made in this thread go from "being in poor taste" to "despicable victim-blaming"

 

[Senethro]

Wow, setting ex-Mossad to track his victims. Maybe all the blamers in this thread could shut the hell up?

 

[Lexicus]

@GoodEnoughForMe mentioned that at the beginning of the thread.

 

[Berzerker]

Why would you blame someone for not speaking out, when speaking out isn't going to stop the behavior?

I blame people for taking hush money (while complaining about a conspiracy of silence)

They came forward now, when doing so actually had a realistic chance of stopping the behavior, in part because the balance of power was no longer working so directly against them.

The balance of power shifted because victims spoke out...Had they spoken out years ago the balance would have shifted years ago. Listen to yourself, the realistic chance of stopping the behavior accompanied speaking out, but speaking out only worked now? Why wouldn't it have worked before? Because victims didn't speak out!

How can you say they are to blame for the actions of another person? That implies that they did something wrong.

They did do something wrong, they enabled a rapist. Isn't that why people are criticizing "Hollywood"? How do you complain - assuming you do - about people in Hollywood allowing this to happen but not the victims who took hush money? If victims keep quiet for cash, how are other people supposed to know they're victims?

I have yet to have anyone explain to me what is wrong about staying silent, when it is reasonable to conclude that speaking out will have no effect?

Would you endorse taking money from a murderer to keep quiet about their crime? I imagine the average German would reasonably conclude opposing Hitler wouldn't have an effect, but the Germans who kept quiet are lower on my ethics ladder than the Germans who did speak out. So, how do you compare the people who took hush money from a rapist with the people who refused the money and spoke out? Do you really see them in the same light?

I just find it in extremely poor taste for dudes to sit here on the internet criticizing the behavior of rape/sexual assault victims. Your opinions are just not welcome or helpful.

Taking hush money from a criminal shouldn't be criticized?

In light of this I feel like the arguments being made in this thread go from "being in poor taste" to "despicable victim-blaming"

The victims who spoke out aren't being blamed, the victims who enabled a rapist by taking his hush money are... But you dont see any difference between them and the women who did speak out? Again - and I dont see you guys answering this - how would you feel if your loved one was raped (or murdered) because prior victims took hush money? Would you see no difference between them and victims who did try to bring the criminal to justice?

Eh, those two guys down in Texas shouldn't have chased the shooter (that was risky) - they should have accepted his bribe and let him go... I dont think I want lessons in morality from you.

 

[Arwon]

Again - and I dont see you guys answering this - how would you feel if your loved one was raped (or murdered) because prior victims took hush money? Would you see no difference between them and victims who did try to bring the criminal to justice?

This is a disgusting thing to say. But since you tried to make this personal, let's dredge it up. Pay attention. My wife is a survivor of several attacks in the past, and for various health, well-being and other circumstantial reasons did not and could not pursue things on any of those cases, including the one where she wad hospitalised.

If she had pursued any of the cases, a successful charge or prosecution would have been very unlikely - her cases were mostly the sort that are hard to pursue, the sort that internet misogynists deny are even real due to a sense of prior consent or the involvement of alcohol. And the bureaucratic and public ordeal would have beem extremely damaging to her already fragile well-being at the time, exacerbating her suffering.

For her to even achieve the vindication of a civil settlement would have been a huge victory. For me to think less of her for how she reacted to being attacked would be unconscionable and cruel. To describe her silence as "helping" the men who attacked is very much to blame her for being a victim and to compound the suffering of innocent people.

Did these men attack others? Almost certainly. Many or even most rapists do. You reckon survivors feel good and okay about that? But very few rapists ever face justice, and that's a FAR BIGGER issue than a few civil suits with confidentiality clauses. Pinning "rapists continuing to rape" on the silence of victims misses the issue entirely. People who are subsequently attacked after a rapist has paid a civil settlement are a tiny proption of victims. And it ain't the responsibility of rape survivors to clean up the world.

Focusing on victims who took what recompense they could get in a system stacked against them, when our entire culture, legal system and numerous social norms and mores work to protect rapists with a conspiracy of silence and gaslighting, is either extremely stupid or outright evil.

Focus instead on the friends and acquaintances of raspists all over the world who ignore, excuse or diminish the red flag behaviours of those close to them. Focus on an adversarial legal system that makes victims publicly relive their suffering. Focus on poorly trained or insensitive or outright hostile law enforcement. Focus on a media culture which also often puts victims on trial while framing rape in the passive voice as just a thing that happens. There are plenty of other targets before you go after small numbers of victims who felt compelled to take the only vindication and support they were ever likely to get.

Honestly, how dare you assume to know the lives and circumstances of victims of rape and sexual assault better than they do. Step back, shut up, stop talking crap. Stay. In. Your. Lane. This is grotesque.

Sorry to mods if this is too flamey or whatever. I hope you'll understand.