Altered Maps VII: Making the World a Better Place

[SchoolzSoKewl]

Spoiler :

I made this map because Persia has been gipped territory in almost every single map ever in the history of altered maps!
The rest is just a bit of fun.
Israel and the Muslim holy lands are now at peace and have united to create a kingdom of love.
The Turks and Greeks have also decided to put aside their differences and united.
The Balkans are all under one flag now and everybody gets along.
Egypt and below are all the domain of Lil' Kim or her vassals(female imitations of Kim).

Nicki Minaj has been exiled to the Arabian desert for swagger jacking and player hating on Lil' Kim.

 

[Bobbtjoe]

The area that the oil spill has hit and threatened.

 

[madviking]

The most simple and egalitarian solution of them all: homesteads! If it worked for America, it'll work no problem for the Middle East!

Spoiler :

 

[Joecoolyo]

I didn't realize Batman was Turkish.

 

[madviking]

It's a city.

 

[Yared]

Socotra? Good idea... But does it belong to western Asia or eastern Africa?

Yemen owned it before so Western Asia?

 

[gangleri2001]

Yemen owned it before so Western Asia?

But Socotra belongs to the African plate. Damn! Even in their new motherland these poles don't know to what continent they belong!

 

[Winner]

So tailless, when are you going to declare the Winner? And what are the winning criteria? Aesthetic impression? Plausibility? Originality?

 

[Tee Kay]

So tailless, when are you going to declare the Winner? And what are the winning criteria? Aesthetic impression? Plausibility? Originality?

You already failed on the last two counts... just kidding

I'm rather sleepy, so I'll do it tomorrow. The entries will be judged on all those criteria and other arbitrary scales I'm not willing to divulge because I haven't really thought about them, but most importantly on their entertainment value.

 

[Yared]

But Socotra belongs to the African plate. Damn! Even in their new motherland these poles don't know to what continent they belong!

Then it's Africa. I mean, French Guyana belongs to France but it's still located in South America.

 

[Winner]

United States of Greater Austria, a plan to reform Austria-Hungary into a federal constitutional monarchy in which all ethnic groups would be fairly represented. It was an idea of Archduke Franz-Ferdinand and his advisers. Sadly he was killed in Sarajevo before he could become Emperor and with him all hope has died too.

If Gavrilo Princip hadn't been such an extraordinary idiot, Europe could have been spared of many of the great tragedies of the 20th century.

 

[aronnax]

Silly German-Austrians. They should have colonised to the sea! Not to Commie land.

 

[Squonk]

United States of Greater Austria, a plan to reform Austria-Hungary into a federal constitutional monarchy in which all ethnic groups would be fairly represented. It was an idea of Archduke Franz-Ferdinand and his advisers. Sadly he was killed in Sarajevo before he could become Emperor and with him all hope has died too.

If Gavrilo Princip hadn't been such an extraordinary idiot, Europe could have been spared of many of the great tragedies of the 20th century.

a bad map and even worse choice of borders. For once, it shows entire population of Spisz and Orawa regions as Slovakians, which was not true when it comes to that times (but it is true according to stats, as all Slavs were counted as Slovaks there I think). also, it doesn't show mixed areas: in Galicia, majorly polish regions in the west were 90+ polish, with the rest being polish Jews. In the eastern part, Poles were a sizeable minority in each municipality, and a majority in most cities. Which means the division proposed here would be unfair, as it would give all the mixed areas to one side. Even some polish majority areas are transphered to the eastern part along the border! Also, the map doesn't show all islands of polish majority.
Not to mention that most carpathian Ruthenians (Lemkos, Boykos, Hutzuls etc) didn't consider themselves the same nation as Ukrainians.

This proposed division does to Poles what Trianon did to Hungarians. Such a division would never be accepted by Poles, and would mean a civil war there.

In fact I believe any proposition of division would mean a war in A-H.

 

[Winner]

a bad map and even worse choice of borders. For once, it shows entire population of Spisz and Orawa regions as Slovakians, which was not true when it comes to that times (but it is true according to stats, as all Slavs were counted as Slovaks there I think). also, it doesn't show mixed areas: in Galicia, majorly polish regions in the west were 90+ polish, with the rest being polish Jews. In the eastern part, Poles were a sizeable minority in each municipality, and a majority in most cities. Which means the division proposed here would be unfair, as it would give all the mixed areas to one side. Even some polish majority areas are transphered to the eastern part along the border! Also, the map doesn't show all islands of polish majority.
Not to mention that most carpathian Ruthenians (Lemkos, Boykos, Hutzuls etc) didn't consider themselves the same nation as Ukrainians.

Boo hoo Your capacity to focus on irrelevant details such as which nationality formed a slim majority in some unimportant piece of land (it's always the Poles, of course) is truly amazing. Actually listening to you here I think the best option would have been to cede all the Polish-speaking areas to Russia and let it deal with the Polish nationalistic delusions in their own way...

This proposed division does to Poles what Trianon did to Hungarians. Such a division would never be accepted by Poles, and would mean a civil war there.

Nonsense. Poland didn't exist at the time and the Poles inside Austria-Hungary were the ones who were better off. They were for most of the time perfectly content with polonizing the Ukrainians and every other ethnic group unfortunate enough to be under their administrative thumb. I guess this is why interwar Poland was so friendly with Hungary which has historically behaved the same. I think it was a response to their national complexes - they felt inferior to the Germans, so they took it out on other, less powerful nations.

Of course this would have ended in the new state. Hungarians would have been forced to stop pretending everyone in the Hungarian kingdom was of Magyar ethnicity and Galicia would have been divided in two to give Ukrainians their fair share of the power. The old days of ethnic expansionism would have ended.

In fact I believe any proposition of division would mean a war in A-H.

Maybe. The Hungarians might have attempted to secede to secure their right to continue the culturecide of their subjects, but they'd have been soundly defeated given that the western regions (Austria, Bohemia, Slovenia) were much more developed (not to mention supported by other countries seeking stability).

Had the plan succeeded, we'd have ended up with a stable, reasonably free Central European power that would have prevented all the OTL crap from happening.

 

[warpus]

Austria Hungary was doomed at the time these changes were being considered anyway.

 

[Winner]

Austria Hungary was doomed at the time these changes were being considered anyway.

No, it wasn't. Historical determinism is BS.

 

[Squonk]

Boo hoo Your capacity to focus on irrelevant details such as which nationality formed a slim majority in some unimportant piece of land (it's always the Poles, of course) is truly amazing.

if there was a map showing Czechs in a similar light, you'd do the same.
Also, I'm discussing the map and its faults. You are discussing me.

Nonsense. Poland didn't exist at the time and the Poles inside Austria-Hungary were the ones who were better off. They were for most of the time perfectly content with polonizing the Ukrainians and every other ethnic group unfortunate enough to be under their administrative thumb. I guess this is why interwar Poland was so friendly with Hungary which has historically behaved the same. I think it was a response to their national complexes - they felt inferior to the Germans, so they took it out on other, less powerful nations.

Ukrainians were often used by A-H to counter the demands of Poles. What do you mean by polonisaion of Ukrainians in A-H's Galicia? Any examples?
Poland had a long tradition of good relationships with Hungary, originating from Middle Ages. We also had a common foe in the interwar period - land-grabbing Tchechoslovakia which conquered both hungarian and polish ethnical areas.
When it comes to hungarisation and polonisation - Czechs and Slovakians were doing exactly the same in the interwar period and after ww2. When it comes to Ukrainians, they were even worse to their ethnical minorities.

Galicia would have been divided in two to give Ukrainians their fair share of the power. The old days of ethnic expansionism would have ended.

"fair share" = all the mixed ukrainian-polish areas go to Ukrainians. And some majorly polish ones as well. Ukrainian part would have around 35-40% polish minority, polish part would have no ukrainian minority at all. It's ethnical gerrymandering.

Maybe. The Hungarians might have attempted to secede to secure their right to continue the culturecide of their subjects, but they'd have been soundly defeated given that the western regions (Austria, Bohemia, Slovenia) were much more developed (not to mention supported by other countries seeking stability).

Do you really think Czechs would be so keen on letting go "Sudetenland" to Germans, Cieszyn Silesia to Poland? That division of Bukowina wouldn't start a conflict between Romanians and Ukrainians? Not to mention the case of Banat, disputed by Hungarians, Romanians and Serbs?

Had the plan succeeded, we'd have ended up with a stable, reasonably free Central European power that would have prevented all the OTL crap from happening.

No we wouldn't. ANY division would mean conflict. Any. Also, Germans (Austrians), Poles, Romanians and Serbs lived mostly outside A-H's borders and would, at least in the case of Romanians, Serbs and Poles, want to unite with their brethren from outside. The idea you propose might seem natural for Czechs, Slovaks, and, to some extent, Hungarians, Slovenes and Croations. For the rest of A-H's nations, it is not.

 

[Winner]

if there was a map showing Czechs in a similar light, you'd do the same.

It does show Czechs in similar light because (surprise surprise) it's obviously an abstraction. Or do you believe there was a sharp transition between majority-German Sudetenland and the majority-Czech rest of Bohemia? No. Brno (Brünn) was about half-German, half-Czech, but between them there were the Jews and other nationalities. According to the map it looks like the city was fully German - probably because the colours only signify linguistic majorities.

No we wouldn't. ANY division would mean conflict. Any. Also, Germans (Austrians), Poles, Romanians and Serbs lived mostly outside A-H's borders and would, at least in the case of Romanians, Serbs and Poles, want to unite with their brethren from outside. The idea you propose might seem natural for Czechs, Slovaks, and, to some extent, Hungarians, Slovenes and Croations. For the rest of A-H's nations, it is not.

Which is why Belgium and Switzerland both descended into civil wars in the 1920s... Oh wait

This is a division inside a larger multi-national state which would presumably have a liberal constitution and democratic procedures respecting the real division of power. I see no, I repeat, NO reason why it couldn't have worked. Such deterministic view is totally misplaced here.

Also, I'm discussing the map and its faults. You are discussing me.

Yes, because you're irritatingly over-sensitive about anything concerning Poland, Poles or Polish. Get over yourself.

 

[Joecoolyo]

It's a city.

I know, it's still funny though

 

[Dachs]

United States of Greater Austria, a plan to reform Austria-Hungary into a federal constitutional monarchy in which all ethnic groups would be fairly represented. It was an idea of Archduke Franz-Ferdinand and his advisers. Sadly he was killed in Sarajevo before he could become Emperor and with him all hope has died too.

If Gavrilo Princip hadn't been such an extraordinary idiot, Europe could have been spared of many of the great tragedies of the 20th century.

It's a nice parable, but in reality - without regards to the nitpickery of the boundaries themselves and the actual division of powers in the federal system, both of which would have been huge sticking points no matter what - not probable. Ferdy was mostly high on the USGA idea before the Hungarians started pulling their blackmail around 1910-11, and by the time of the Balkan Wars his writings don't really make any allowance for the plan at all. It's generally accepted that he would probably have just tried to impose a simpler solution, such as the tripartite monarchy plan, or even an attempt to return to the old centralized empire that obtained in the 1850s. And any one of these plans would probably have been opposed by a large number of Hungarians in the form of civil war, and perhaps even some Germans, and that would have disastrous geopolitical consequences.

Theoretically possible, I suppose, but a whole helluva lot militated against it, and it's quite the long shot that the geopolitical stars would have aligned the right way AND Ferdy would've changed his mind. The sad part is that federalism didn't get even remotely popular among anybody except the South Slavs until it was arguably too late to do anything about it.