Altered Maps XVIII: Continuing Curious Cartography

[Birdjaguar]

Maybe they can dump some miller lite into the ocean and throw a beer party

I really liked the way New Zealand integrated various aspects of Maori history and culture into the very essence of NZ. We don't really do that here in Canada. Government buildings in NZ had all sorts of Maori cultural artefacts/highlights, the Maori language was used beside English, etc. Government buildings here in Canada are just.. European. The only thing we do these days is acknowledge that we stole the land before every meeting or speech or whatever, but that just feels like paying lip service, which accomplishes nothing.

I spent 12 years working for tribes in NM and WA. They were just terrible to work for. In the US tribes tend to fall into one of two groups: traditional and constitutional based on their type of governance. The more traditional were the worst but not by much.

 

[Tee Kay]

I spent 12 years working for tribes in NM and WA. They were just terrible to work for. In the US tribes tend to fall into one of two groups: traditional and constitutional based on their type of governance. The more traditional were the worst but not by much.

Is it terrible in a specific way?

 

[Kyriakos]

4.3, 3.3, no wonder there is so much immigration from central Asia. As for Israel, 2.9? It could primarily be palestinians.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Is it terrible in a specific way?

Yes, tribal culture looks pretty from the outside but from the inside it is very different: corrupt and vindictive. More like a small scale badly run African country. This is different from how they deal with non tribal people.

 

[Tee Kay]

4.3, 3.3, no wonder there is so much immigration from central Asia. As for Israel, 2.9? It could primarily be palestinians.

Haredi families have like 6 - 8 children, the average for Palestinians is only three.

Yes, tribal culture looks pretty from the outside but from the inside it is very different: corrupt and vindictive. More like a small scale badly run African country. This is different from how they deal with non tribal people.

Intratribal corruption and vindictiveness, ie. against each other, not so much against outsiders?

 

[Arakhor]

I thought China was doing badly, but South Korea looks like it's facing an oncoming disaster.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Haredi families have like 6 - 8 children, the average for Palestinians is only three.



Intratribal corruption and vindictiveness, ie. against each other, not so much against outsiders?

Yes much of it is internal and rooted in the clan nature of tribal culture. Tribal interaction with non tribal folks is very different.

 

[Samson]

There's a heated debate over whether the big island of Tierra del Fuego should qualify for membership.

 

[warpus]

From what I've read it will take a lot more than just economic incentives to put a dent in this problem. The hypercompetitive nature of education and your standing in the workplace and society (leading to overworked students&employees, stress, burnouts, suicides, etc.) in South Korean culture seems to be a big part of the problem, but the politicians don't really seem to touch that aspect of it at all. I don't think just throwing money at it will accomplish anything, they need to sort of rework the way they look at what school & work are all about in the first place.. In a way they need to rebuild large parts of their society from scratch, and they don't seem to even want to consider any of this as a solution.

Dropping birthrates seems to be a problem in virtually every developed country. Here in Canada economic incentives aren't enough to push people to have more kids either, even though we lack some of the same problems South Korea has with an overworked and overstressed population and overcompetitive approach to everything. IMO if you want more people to have kids you need to provide them with more money but also more TIME, at the very least. Two parents having to work 40-60 hours a week each leaves little time to raise a family unless you want to go completely insane in the process. I am not surprised people are de-cluttering their lives as a result and making them simpler - and no kids makes things a LOT easier. In places like South Korea people also have less and less time to date in the first place, meet prospective partners, etc.

Overall I think it was a massive mistake to model our entire economic model on the idea that the population & everything else will always grow. You can't have unlimited growth, that's just not possible or even sustainable.

We need to rework how our economy works if we really want to fix any of this, but of course that's never going to happen either.

 

[Tee Kay]

It's a multifaceted problem but at the end of the day low birth rates is at the intersection of high expectations and low personal ability to achieve them. South Korea is an extreme case but it happens in every developed country because in developed countries the middle class are conditioned to aspire to upper class living standards as well as perfect fairytale interpersonal relationships, which most will never attain.

Having children for a middle class Westerner is a huge leap of faith, in an age where few still believes. It's a wonder birth rates aren't lower actually.

 

[Arakhor]

People naturally have fewer children in areas with low infant mortality and good child welfare. After all, if you know that your children are all going to grow up to be healthy adults, you don't typically feel compelled to make half a dozen 'just in case'.

 

[Tee Kay]

Big jump from having less than half a dozen children because they're going to survive to having just one or none at all. Different motivations for each case.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Boomer families I am familiar with ranged from 3-8 usually with a larger than expected number in rural areas at 8-12. Millennials seem to be down to 1-2. Too early to tell about zoomers.

 

[warpus]

If our governments care so much about more kids being born, maybe they need to build some good old fashioned axlotl tanks and deal with it on their own terms.

It seems like they are too incompetent to figure out how to motivate us to have more kids and there's no way they're going to sit down and reform our economy to not be so focused on constant growth. So, axlotl tanks it is, or our economies fall apart at some point in the future

 

[Kyriakos]

If our governments care so much about more kids being born, maybe they need to build some good old fashioned axlotl tanks and deal with it on their own terms.

It seems like they are too incompetent to figure out how to motivate us to have more kids and there's no way they're going to sit down and reform our economy to not be so focused on constant growth. So, axlotl tanks it is, or our economies fall apart at some point in the future

With current tech, it appears to be highly unlikely that level of life in developed countries is sustainable if they get a population boost. So the state in those countries (not Canada or Australia, though, which are very sparsely populated) doesn't have an incentive in the first place.
The current population of China+India is 800 million people more than the entire global population was 80 years ago.

 

[Tee Kay]

?? why do people talk about national population density (which is misleading anyway) when whether quality of life is "sustainable" or not depends on global factors (eg trade)

 

[Samson]

The other aspect that seems relevant to include in the calculation is productivity. If the proportion of working age people is going down at a lower rate than productivity is going up there is no problem, and a population decline in the countries with the highest CO2/capita could be a good thing for the long term survival of our species.

 

[Kyriakos]

Just posted for Croatia.

 

[amadeus]

They used Comic Sans.

 

[danjuno]

This is a middle school presentation, right? Right?