Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

A Triple Alliance victory would seem kinda boring though...if the other side wins, you have a USA-Russia-Germany all likely to diverge into seperate extremist (although kinda cliche'd) paths. If you have the Triple Alliance win, you get a world divided into three spheres of influence.

Might not be so simple, especially if they don't win too easily. Either America or Russia could still be pushed into revolution at the war's end, Germany could be knocked out militarily (it would be hard, but possible) in which case I suspect the Entente will do its best to cripple it economically as well, and a Sino-Japanese alliance might hold its ground in the Far East quite effectively. Britain, France and Spain will lose lots of prestige and colonies, but still remain viable powers and will now be pushed into reform. So we might get a nice and multipolar world here yet if the winners are left too weak to properly pick things up and the losers are able to regroup for another go.

must be noted that Greece is basically in a state of anarchy right now, with Athens only exercising effective control over the original Kingdom plus a little bit of Thessaly

All the more reason for it to not even bother trying to conquer too many new lands before consolidating what it already has.

Panda or someone like him is.

Nah, Panda is just another anti-coloniast pansy who is afraid of a little imperial overstretch. :p Thing is, German capitalits still will try and establish colonies, and German government still will have to follow them, whether reluctantly or not.
 
I've decided to throw you people a modern day althist idea that struck me as having good NES potential; and for once I mean modern day as per Symphony D.'s definition, more or less (well, at any rate, it's Atomic Age and post-WWII).

Predictably, it concerns saving the Soviet Union. The most commonly proposed alternative for Gorbachev's reforms as a method of salvation is, ofcourse, the Chinese model, but I think that really wasn't a realistic option with Gorbachev, or really with anyone else in the late Soviet Union. Gorbachev wasn't Deng Xiaoping. Deng Xiaoping was, after all, a veteran of revolutionary struggles from the start, and survived even the Cultural Revolution. He was, therefore, trully experienced and very pragmatic; Gorbachev wasn't completely inexperienced, but it's really not comparable. The years of stagnation made the entirety of the party leadership rather naive - naively hardline or naively reformist. That must not be allowed to happen.

Therefore, if the Chinese model is to be adapted in the Soviet Union, it is to be done with a veteran, and fairly early on; specifically, within a decade of Stalin's death. And the candidature is extremelly obvious; Lavrentiy Pavlovich Beria was the veteran's veteran, the pragmatic's pragmatic, and happened to advocate a much more serious detente with the West along with major reforms in the Soviet Union itself. And until the last moments he did have a fair amount of allies, such as Malenkov, another advocate of economic reform. The forces arranged against him were serious, but his victory in the post-Stalin power struggles was definitely not impossible.

After Beria takes power and asserts it properly, reforms will begin; without going into to much detail, there will be a general easing and liberalisation in most spheres of life. That much was inevitable anyway, but Beria and Malenkov will take it further than Khruschev did. Prisoners will be returned from the GULags much like in OTL, but economic development will be different; to help the nation "catch it's breath" (a widespread theme in contemporary Soviet state propaganda), focus will shift towards the development of light industries, revival of agriculture and economic decentralisation (which occured in OTL anyway; here, it too is taken further, but on the other hand the actual economic practice involves less disastrous experimentation). There will be a partial return to a revised variant of the policy of the NEP, and as relations with the West are normalised, further liberalisation will occur and foreign capital will be invited; it will help develop Siberia and Central Asia, as well as finish the reconstruction in European Russia. Also, Beria's victory will mean a major defeat of the Communist Part as such, as this will mean that Stalin's OTL gradual phasing out of party control will continue in good order. The state will remain very much authoritarian, ofcourse, and the ideology of communism will remain as well, but it will be moderated considerably.

Anyhow, you get the general idea. Of more interest to us are geopolitics, as usual, and there Beria, eager to concentrate on internal issues and to improve relations with the West, will go ahead with his ideas for the detente. Germany will be reunited and demilitarised (probably under Adenauer); the grip on the Eastern European states will be softened, while relations with Yugoslavia are normalised. Troops will probably be largely withdrawn from Eastern Europe, though a softer form of Soviet domination will be retained and an economic cooperation treaty is likely, but no Warsaw Pact. At the same time, the Sino-Soviet split will occur much earlier, and Mao will be very enraged at Soviet revisionism; it will be an even more bitter split, and the communist movement will often be divided between Maoist and Soviet factions, most revolutionary movements in Africa and Latin America aligning with the former for many reasons. North Korea and possibly Albania might also side with Mao for good. Elsewhere, Soviet foreign policy will probably be similar to OTL in general direction, but much less radical; the Soviets still will strongly support decolonisation, but won't usually send as much military and humanitarian aid into the 3rd world. Arab countries will still be given support over Israel in the Middle East, but likely not quite as much.

What of other countries, and further along the line? From here it gets more hypothetical (and less detailed).

The NATO is already in place, but it will naturally devolve considerably. Without Soviet pressure, USA is likely to eventually have yet another bout of "isolationism", though as usual it won't be quite as simple as that. Indeed, what is more likely to happen is that the USA's attention is decisively turned away from Europe and the Middle East; instead of the Cold War, it will have a War on Maoism, as the Maoist movements are further radicalised and rise to the forefront. Maoist and allied revolutionaries roam in Latin America, Southeast Asia and parts of Africa, and it is the duty of the USA to put an end to this, as well as to protect American financial interests over there. I predict an earlier Vietnam War, a Cuba War and many lesser such conflicts. In the process, the alliances with European nations and with Israel degrade in favour of alliances with former British dominions (Australia and New Zeeland in particular will help in Vietnam, and South Africa could be propped up and encouraged to become the gendarme of southern Africa). Vietnam and Cuba will probably see America triumph in the end, but not without considerable losses and expenditures, and some other interventions might not go very smooth neither (probably also inciting greater revolutionary tensions in the Third World; as a matter of fact, the defeated Cuban and Vietnamese revolutionaries will probably try and escape, and many of them will manage to spread wide and radicalise a lot of people). I suspect relations with such countries as India and France will go pretty rotten, too (Nehru and De Gaulle will have a field day blasting American imperialism, and European intellectuals will basically have to focus on it as well, in the absence of more convenient alternatives). There will be dissent, but probably not enough of it, and American politics will, generally be much more to the right without such an intense Cold War. Both the arms race and the space race will be much, much less intense as well.

Anyways, Europe. It is hard to say how things will go there. One thing is for sure, politics there will generally be much more left-wing than in OTL. If the Soviet foreign policy in Europe is either unbelievably unsuccesful or unbelievably succesful, there might arise a very early European Union from the Atlantic Ocean to the Soviet border (or, in the latter case, to the Pacific Ocean ;) ). The former scenario will see it led by France and De Gaulle; the latter will have it either under Soviet leadership or a one that is very strongly influenced by said leadership and is generally left-wing. As said, both possibilities are outlandish and a bit boring. Slightly more likely is a later union, if the Soviet influence in Eastern Europe declines over time; that one will probably be German-led. But IMHO both the most interesting and the most likely scenario will see an European Economic Community, some diplomatic cooperation and not much else. In that case, after a reconstruction that without a Cold War will be generally faster but less dependant on foreign support (Americans focusing on the 3rd world and the Soviets busy rebuilding themselves; ofcourse, the one way an aforediscussed Soviet European Union might come to be is if the Soviets provide lots and lots of economic assistance to Europe, like they did in the 3rd world in OTL and with much the same intent), the various European countries will tread their own paths. Britain will focus on the Commonwealth and the other former colonies, trying to defend its economic interests and probably supporting, with reservations the American crusade against Maoism while attempting to reestablish the British influence in the more pro-American dominions. Britain will naturally also involve itself in the Middle East; there might be a renewed Great Game between the Soviets and the British there.

France... is really complicated. In the end, it is a question of colonial policy, I suppose. If France will try to hold on to its most important colonies, it will side with Britain and America; certainly it could cooperate with the former in the Middle East and the latter in Indochina. But if it embraces its wilder and somewhat more left-wing side (with De Gaulle or without; the man could align himself with just about anyone, really), then things will be very different; France will gradually withdraw from the colonies, though retaining some political and economic influence (as with Britain, more so than in OTL, in all the likelihood), decry American imperialism, support Quebecois separatism (which just might succeed in this case; I hear that Cold War can unite a nation's right-wing factions regardless of language, and here that just won't happen) and work to unify Europe. Whatever happens, France WILL play in the Middle Eastern Great Game; if it is a British ally it will probably prop up Israel, but if it is a wild card then it is a wild card. We might see a Franco-Soviet alliance to thwart "Anglo-Israeli neo-imperialism" by propping up Arab nationalists. IMHO the left-wing approach is more likely, as this world's Europe will by definition be more left-wing.

Portugal will go much like in OTL, though possibly even more plagued by Maoist movements, possibly even to the point of revolution in Portugal itself, in which case we will have a fun "North-Korea-in-Western-Europe".

Spain will definitely be more detached from the European community as a whole; Franco will probably be a stalwart American ally.

Italy, in all the likelihood, will turn inwards for the most part (internal strife, economic reform).

Germany will probably have an even better economic miracle than in OTL, but where will it go from there is a difficult question. In all the likelihood, while France concerns itself with Quebec and the Middle East, Germany will rise to led the European Union movement. Close relations with both Eastern and Western European countries will exist; in the event of Soviet influence in Eastern Europe failing, there might even be a "mini-EU" with Germany, Austria, Italy and the Eastern European nations. Anyhow, a recovered Germany will definitely compete with France for European leadership and with the USSR for Eastern European influence, and it may well win out. In the event of major diplomatic defeats and resultant paranoia (btw, how will the absence of a Cold War and a more open Soviet Union affect the development of world economy? Could we get another huge crisis here? ;) ), though, there is a very, very minor possibility of Germany trying to make a third go at you know what...

As a funny thought, the revival of German influence in Eastern Europe might lead to Yugoslavia becoming a pragmatically-authoritarian (i.e. politically quite similar) Soviet Union's main ally. ;) A later, alternate cold war (or even a WW III) might see Germany, UK, USA vs. France, Yugoslavia, USSR, with China somewhere on the sidelines like Islamist Iran was/could have been in OTL.

The Middle East will see Israel and more conservative Arabic factions supported by Britain, and to a lesser extent USA, while reformist Arabic nationalists align with France and/or USSR. Really not sure about consequences here, except that the latter side will probably fare better than it did in OTL, generally speaking (less American involvement, while the Soviets aren't as tied down elsewhere). Israel won't be erased from the map, but it will face more problems. Nasser might see more success with some of his schemes, and the U.A.R. might even survive. Pro-Soviet socialists might rise to power in Iran, especially if the British undermine the White Revolution, although alternatively they and the Americans, panicked by growing Franco-Soviet influence, might prop the Shah up just enough to make it work.

Perhaps there will be reformed, but fairly conservative pro-American and pro-British monarchies in Iran and Iraq, countered by a socialist U.A.R.

India will probably do rather like in OTL, balancing between various factions while trying to beat up Pakistan. One thought is that the Chinese would be less confrontational towards India, having enough on their hands as the Americans focus on Southeast Asia; perhaps there might be Sino-Indian diplomatic cooperation to thwart this American influence. India definitely will be trying to establish some influence on its own in Southeast Asia and Africa, and in the absence of a Cold War (and thus, a Non-Aligned Movement) it might focus more on making itself into a great power in its own right. Again, really not sure how will it go.

China, as already mentioned, will be further radicalised and generally will be palced into the position of leading the revolutionary movement. Greater clashes with both the USA and the USSR will mean stronger xenophobia, with all that entails in such a state; China might develop into a giant North Korea. But unlike North Korea, it can actually be a threat, and so there might in the end be a climatic war between USA and China, the USSR probably also getting involved if the latter seems likely to collapse, if only to secure its own influence in North Asia. But all that is not very likely.

If reformists still do come to power, they will be more likely to align with the USSR instead of the USA.

Anyhow, I think this is generally NES-worthy scenario, though it definitely needs fleshing out.
 
The general premise is alright although I take exception with many of the assumptions following it. I'm not going to go into too much detail right now though.

Both the arms race and the space race will be much, much less intense as well.
As long as there are two sides that do not like each other and point nuclear bombs at each other, they will both spend lots of money on making sure they can shoot theirs off first. Particularly as comparatively the cost of maintaining a giant conventional military is prohibitive, which is precisely why both sides built up such massive stockpiles in the first place (and by the time they were far enough in to understand radiation effects sensibly, they already had thousands of weapons).

Nobody with a brain is going to sit around letting their multi-billion dollar equipment go obsolete, especially when paranoid. Plus, the US can just refocus on China, since it has a massive conventional military, which America can't economically counter--nuclear weapons more than make up for that.

China might develop into a giant North Korea. But unlike North Korea, it can actually be a threat, and so there might in the end be a climatic war between USA and China, the USSR probably also getting involved if the latter seems likely to collapse, if only to secure its own influence in North Asia. But all that is not very likely.
If it does, for the above reason, and American sea power, China will be reduced to a radioactive dust bowl, because a Kim Il-Sung type nation needs vast conventional displays of power far more than it needs atomic bombs, and without Soviet aide and an even more conservative outlook a Chinese atomic bomb would take much longer to boot.
 
Plus, the US can just refocus on China, since it has a massive conventional military, which America can't economically counter--nuclear weapons more than make up for that.

It's just not the same, though, is it? Especially as China indeed will have lots of problems making a bomb.

Still, it will probably be best for a NES in this setting to start somewhere in 1964 or in the vicinity; enough time for the changes to take effect but not enough for any of the later hypothetical radical developments, like the European Union or the Sino-American War, to happen, as such things are best left for the NES itself.
 
It's just not the same, though, is it? Especially as China indeed will have lots of problems making a bomb.
They will just focus on conventional military capabilities instead and menace the local area, which America can't counter easily without nuking. It was a prominent piece of Cold War theory that if you could force a conventional war it might be possible to win it if neither side was willing to use nuclear weapons.

I also have other major points with the timeline aside though, including (but not solely):

- A reformist USSR is vastly more likely to decry Stalin than even Khrushchev was, and thus more likely to incur the wrath of Maoist China-- I do not see the US being China's main enemy, but the USSR, and the Sino-Soviet border is very long, and north of it there are many resources, particularly if China again runs into complications with India and as a result the USSR again helps the latter over the former. It will appear to China every bit as "Imperialist" as the West... and much closer to home.
- The idea of De Gaulle saying a peep about Vietnam seems unlikely given his government was begging the Americans to tactical nuke NVA positions around Dien Bien Phu. The French will have a hard time whining about American imperialism after just doing the same things, and in this timeline, perhaps even getting American support.
- American Domino Theory was chiefly built on the USSR, not China--with it out of the way and most other international communist movements being distinctly controlled by the USSR at the time, I do not see Maoists "radicalizing" much anybody, and at worst causing a few splinter groups to pop up, much sort of like Trotskyists did--if only because China's influence is much weaker. China will be menaced by the Soviets at home (or think it is) and by the Americans in any adventures abroad (Africa, South America, Middle East).
- Cuba wouldn't be much of a bloodbath given nobody likes Castro, whatever propaganda comes out of Havana--the Bay of Pigs, disastrous as it was, might have worked with actual direct backing, and anything much better planned could do so fairly handily with direct support.
- Vietnam would also be somewhat simpler without 1) Soviet aide (also contributing to), 2) LBJ and McNamera and their ********, overly political way of waging war by hamstringing their forces.
- There isn't much elsewhere the US would intervene where there are Communist forces except South America, which is its own backyard and where it is old hat.
- Why would Southeast Asia be the flashpoint in any war? It's more likely to be what it's always been: Taiwan.
 
- A reformist USSR is vastly more likely to decry Stalin than even Khrushchev was, and thus more likely to incur the wrath of Maoist China-- I do not see the US being China's main enemy, but the USSR, and the Sino-Soviet border is very long, and north of it there are many resources, particularly if China again runs into complications with India and as a result the USSR again helps the latter over the former. It will appear to China every bit as "Imperialist" as the West... and much closer to home.

Diplomatically yes, but how much could China possibly do against USSR, short of an actual military action that even Mao will realise to be kind of hopeless. So instead they will compete for leadership in the international communist movement more covertly. There is simply much more China could do agianst both USSR and the West by focusing on the 3rd world.

- The idea of De Gaulle saying a peep about Vietnam seems unlikely given his government was begging the Americans to tactical nuke NVA positions around Dien Bien Phu. The French will have a hard time whining about American imperialism after just doing the same things, and in this timeline, perhaps even getting American support.

De Gaulle did stranger things. I suspect that he will be pro-American while hoping to hold on to colonies, and later either he or a more left-wing successor will start leaning in the opposite direction.

Ofcourse, as I already said, if France DOES decide to hold on to its colonies in the long-term it will inevitably ally with the USA.

I do not see Maoists "radicalizing" much anybody, and at worst causing a few splinter groups to pop up, much sort of like Trotskyists

Trotsky didn't have his own country. I think it will be more of a matter of autochtonous revolutionary movements adapting Maoist ideas, simply because they fit in well for most of the 3rd world, most of the times. That's how it usually works anyway.

- Cuba wouldn't be much of a bloodbath given nobody likes Castro, whatever propaganda comes out of Havana--the Bay of Pigs, disastrous as it was, might have worked with actual direct backing, and anything much better planned could do so fairly handily with direct support.

I'd say that he did have a fair amount of support early on, and that is when any interventions will be happening. Furthermore, while conquering Cuba will be easy, subsequently communist and simply nationalist resistance is likely to pick up, and it will take some time to properly stomp it out.

- Vietnam would also be somewhat simpler without 1) Soviet aide (also contributing to), 2) LBJ and McNamera and their ********, overly political way of waging war by hamstringing their forces.

Naturally. It will all go far better than in OTL, it's just that the althistorical American population will not really appreciate that and will whine about casualties regardless.

- There isn't much elsewhere the US would intervene where there are Communist forces except South America, which is its own backyard and where it is old hat.

I still think Southeast Asia has some nice places, and Americans are likely to be very interested in strenghthening their positions there if Mao is Enemy Number One. Certainly something will have to be done about communists in Thailand and Cambodia.

- Why would Southeast Asia be the flashpoint in any war? It's more likely to be what it's always been: Taiwan.

Hmm? Was it that much of a flashpoint in OTL? Though it certainly will be important.
 
I really have nothing to say on this most recent althistorical topic...sorry, guys. However, I am thinking of accelerating development of my TL to an NES-ready format...first, to start with the map...
 
...which promptly stalled, due to my incompetence at using a computer to draw anything at all. I could, however, start on basic stats, if anyone's interested.
 
Okay, update. I've been writing a bit, a more fleshed out timeline than the last little bit, and I've been wondering: is it reasonable for Spain to try for Mexico in the early 1880s? Mexico will be in a shambles from Diaz and Lerdo de Tejada fighting each other, and it will have been enough time for France to create a prototype of their new model army. This way, unfortunately, there is more Spanish activity in Latin America (and German, paralleling colonial development in Africa) early on. Is this all still okay, or do I have to put off the war for a decade or so, and instead concentrate on East Asia?
 
I suppose it would also depend on USA's foreign policy, which is rarely constant in such a tumultous time. But generally, during an intense civil war is the best time to intervenne.
 
Number One Rule of Writing Fiction: never ask the audience what they want--ever.
 
Spain conquering Mexico? How about them putting a Maximilian-esque guy in power that they can control in power.
 
Number One Rule of Writing Fiction: never ask the audience what they want--ever.

He didn't ask what they want, he asked what is more feasible.

Spain conquering Mexico? How about them putting a Maximilian-esque guy in power that they can control in power.

Maximilian will likely be in power anyway. :p

I think the most practical thing to do would indeed be to put some puppet leader in power and have him advertise closer economical integration and political alliance. But where's the fun in that? Far better to put some popular conservative (but pro-Spanish) leader in power and use his supporters as death-squads to kill everyone who resists, then say that he has abused his power, depose him with force and install a nice, quiet viceroy to oversee the integration of the grateful populace into the Spanish Empire.

Also known as the Harkonnen Gambit. ;)
 
Thanks for your thoughts...though I wish das hadn't been so specific. :p
 
On a completely irrelevant topic, does the local Chinese community (and other people who actually know what I'm talking about) think that the Sui Dynasty could have been saved? Certainly it had been one of China's three most disappointing dynasties, in the terms of having immense potential but ending in disaster (the other two were the Qin and that... thing Yuan Shikai tried to create). Immense public works, Buddhism, huge territorial ambitions... Might have a quick victory over Goguryeo (as opposed to one of the most disastrous defeats I've ever heard of, in the history of both humans and polar bears) been enough?
 
On a completely irrelevant topic, does the local Chinese community (and other people who actually know what I'm talking about) think that the Sui Dynasty could have been saved? Certainly it had been one of China's three most disappointing dynasties, in the terms of having immense potential but ending in disaster (the other two were the Qin and that... thing Yuan Shikai tried to create). Immense public works, Buddhism, huge territorial ambitions... Might have a quick victory over Goguryeo (as opposed to one of the most disastrous defeats I've ever heard of, in the history of both humans and polar bears) been enough?

The defeat of Goguryeo was an external cause, and not very important one at that. Their main downfall was the public works (same can be said of Qin) and lack of administrative competence IMO. What would be interesting, i suppose, is if Li/Tang didn't come to be after Sui, either with some other (less competent) rogue general arising instead or Li Shimin never coming to power (he was the 2nd son and killed his brothers for the throne). We could very much see another north/south situation since the Uighurs were watching China during that period.

To save the Sui, actually, maybe you could have the actual Crown Prince come to power instead of the megalomanical OTL King. That may work i think.. Rational being less ambitious Emperor = lessa mbitious undertaking = less dissent. The bad side is you may not have the huge territorial ambition you seek, and allt hose public works that helped in successive generations may not arise.
 
External causes usually are of secondary importance, ofcourse, but I think in this one case that hugely expensive and disastrous war might well have been most important. Ofcourse, what you said about lack of administrative competence is kind of true; the Sui took over a badly torn China and so had to rebuild the civil services from the start, but got distracted along the way.

So perhaps a more pragmatic leader might properly reestablish the government first, as well as generally avoid pushing the people so hard in the construction/conquest drive, and only then attack the Goguryeo.

Which might bring about an earlier version of the OTL Tang hegemony in the southeastern section of the Steppe, from northern Korea to Central Asia. That might have lots of interesting side-effects.
 
I agree with thomander on most points but I'll like to point out that the first Crown Prince of Wendi would be worse than the future Yangdi. Think of the first Crown Prince as a "Second Emperor" of the Qin Dynasty. Personally speaking, unless there was a miracle of a succession and Wendi had other sons who were practical, I doubt the Sui would have been successful with the rulers they had after the founder.

On another note, the Qin Dynasty isn't seen THAT negatively but quite well regardless of the ah... actions by the First Emperor. From what I've heard and seen, the Song and Ming seem to be in worst regard despite the technological successes as they both fell to foreign barbarian steppe invaders as opposed to collapsing due to internal problems such as the Han and Tang. We call ourselves the Han and Tang Ren (People of the Tang) for a reason you know ;)
 
What about the Qing? I'm pretty sure they aren't much liked, both for being foreign barbarian steppe invaders (are there domestic sedentary steppe invaders, btw? :p ) and for certain complications in the 19th century. Even though they did die a natural and honourable death for Chinese dynasties, later resurrection attempts aside.
 
Kangxi and Qianlong are considered two of the greatest Chinese Emperors regardless of their ah... barbaric origins. That pretty much endears them to most of my relatives and associated friends whenever they start talking about the Chinese Dynasties after they all had some alcohol :p Not to mention they were the largest of the Chinese Dynasties and because of them the PRC has claims to ah... certain disputed territories.

EDIT: Of course, they all get riled up whenever the Eight-Nation Alliance is brought up and their destruction of so many prized cultural artifacts due to greed; fortunately British and American troops didn't participate...
 
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