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Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

Discussion in 'Never Ending Stories' started by Dachs, Jun 5, 2007.

  1. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    Well, I had the assassination teams there in droves, for several turns, and I had no reports of you stopping anything. I had the whole area thoroughly infiltrated. So either you compromised all my people, and yet were unable to use that advantage against me, or I can only suppose the Greeks had nothing between their ears. Or their legs, apparently...

    Regardless, I hated them. My frustration was extremely evident in my orders.
     
  2. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    You should probably blame me, too, because I really ought to have taken them over (and almost sent Dis a PM on several occasions), but I thought that they wouldn't rebel because of what das did and what the updates were saying about how much they had been terrorized into increasing Ottoman confidence. Yes, I know we've been over this before.

    das, any comments? :p
     
  3. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    Well, I did go to great lengths to secure the loyalty of the Orthodox populations, especially the Greeks and the Armenians; but I agree that by the time things began to go this poorly there should've been some opportunistic uprisings if nothing else.
     
  4. Disenfrancised

    Disenfrancised Beep Beep

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    So? Maybe those other games overestimated the willingness to rebel :p? Though to be fair it probably was more likely than I thought at the time and I was certainly planning to have one in the next turn or so. I also doubt how much it would have helped you being as it would be centered in the south and the ottomans would have had little trouble in bottling them up (though great trouble in removing them).

    @Dachs: player running had nothing to do with rebel occurrence in a DisNES, I always get annoyed at random player rebellions (as well as the lack of NPC rebellion when the controlling player does something right stupid).

    Well there are backwaters and there is being behind the wave, and the HRE does have some talent in its institutions, just less than the per-capita of many other countries, and those are just rife with Lysenkoism and other political ills. Finally the recent Russian success have given them an air of hubris. Needless to say they know how to use what they do have very well, its advancement they are less able on.

    As to military industrial complexes, with a great deal of state owned manufacture and anemic capitalism there is less of a profit motive on the industry behalf, and a land military with vast amounts of occupation duty is naturally more wanting of men and supplies than the latest toys - a military-agricultural complex perhaps ;)?
     
  5. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    A thorn in the enemy's side is worth two thousand in the bush. :p
     
  6. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Well yeah; I meant about that block of text I dropped on you people about a page or two ago. ;)

    @Dis: Then you are a much more realistic mod than we have seen in awhile and I would like you to get back to doing that.
     
  7. Disenfrancised

    Disenfrancised Beep Beep

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    Realism has time and effort overheads, both things I lack (I also hate the act of writing), see DisNES3. Though playing with GIMP recently has given me...urges.

    Also realism is nice, but doesn't add enough fun to be worth it, especially as you can have a fast updating and apparently enjoyable NES without it ;).
     
  8. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    I like the GIMP much better than MS Paint, but unfortunately the current widely-used "Jason map" (I realize this is a misnomer, but I don't really care) uses cities and borders of a very inappropriate size for GIMP (a lot of extra clicking). Where's the blank version of the map you used for the Guess-the-PoD again?
     
  9. Disenfrancised

    Disenfrancised Beep Beep

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    Symphony took it down as it is not up to his exacting standards, you could ask him nicely to repost it, or I might the next time I'm at home.
     
  10. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    Believe me when I say they're a bigger pain for me than they are for other people... :( After the hoops I've had to jump through I'm not entirely trusting of ArcMap's scaling feature, so something else is going to probably force me to reconstitute it either today or tomorrow anyway.
     
  11. Luckymoose

    Luckymoose The World is Mine

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    2 pixels for border and a 4 pixel cross for cities is inappropriate? I find nothing easier in the world.
     
  12. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    Returning to Dis' PoD:
    - If that Incan-Peru thing is neither Inca Empire nor Peru, then what is it? [Something] of the Andes?
    - That larger North American state, is it Francophone or what?
    - Portugal. Was Portugal thwarted/considerably hindered in its bid to dominate the Indian Ocean trade? Because that might explain several things.

    Going back to my PoD now, as I apparently "forgot" to answer some of Dachs' questions:

    The Cardinal, duh.

    Yessss... Well, someone had to seize them and the Flemings were on the roll, so. ;)

    It was actually quite boring; they gradually separated themselves from the HRE, had some local power-struggles and mini-revolutions (but it was less radical than in OTL, so there were more aristocratic elements left in the end than in OTL), and pulled themselves together to a) defend themselves from France and b) compete with England/Britain. They still did get partly incorporated into the HRE at a later date (early 17th century), though it was a very loose incorporation that merely allowed them to focus on assorted colonial pursuits under the Imperial umbrella; this arrangement gradually disintegrated, though an alliance was retained.

    The Fifty Years War left the country in shambles, with many old institutions quite seriously damaged; this paved the way for a somewhat more unitarian form of government, plus various social reforms, though those went nowhere near what the assorted radicals demanded and still demand.

    Ilmen. a.k.a. Ilmen Slavs. But in this case it's used for Novgorodians and the Slavic inhabitants of the area of modern Tver (the state, not the city) in general.

    Initially it was a three-way struggle between Denmark, HRE and Tver (Sweden and Poland sometimes tried to act up as well, but nothing good came out of it for any of them, except perhaps for Poland during the more recent phase of the struggle). Eventually the Danes fell from their zenith and since then it was either the HRE against Denmark, or the HRE against Tver, or both against the HRE, and sometimes they brought in France as well (just once, actually, in the early 19th century).

    All kinds of people, let's just say that it's potential was squandered far more than in OTL. Ultimately, some local noble got the throne after the Egyptians were finally thrown out by a popular uprising in mid-18th century.

    Lets just say that when the Age of Nationalism came, it hit the Holy Roman Empire (heretofore in control over Italy, amongst other places, though via a puppet aristocratic republic confederacy type thing) very hard. Control over Italy had partly declined over time as the Empire was busy in other areas, but was fully overthrown later in the 19th century (probably not without some Egyptian and Chernigovian support); Poland also broke away (with fairly explicit Tverite assistance), but elsewhere the Imperials were ultimately able to maintain law and order, scaling back to regroup and deal with the economic crisis before taking any action to reassert hegemony.
     
  13. Disenfrancised

    Disenfrancised Beep Beep

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    The name translates as 'The Empire of the Silver Kingdoms' but telling you what language its in rather gives the game away ;).

    The blue one is Francophone-lite due to immigration and large anglo minorities at the time of founding. Nowadays everyone can speak a version of French that makes Parisians shudder, but most departments and groups have their own languages and dialects. Also note that colonisation of the americas was rather different in the timeline (see French south american colonies)

    Yes, no, and yes. Portugals initial attempts were somewhat less successful, then the unified Iberian monarchies took rather more interest in the east than OTL and accomplished a lot, only to be gradually pushed back by the northern europeans, rising Indian and Indochinese states and a China that rather dislikes them.

    Really? I thought the flemmings were the original colonists there what with portugal going for mexico and the western route to SE Asia
     
  14. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    I'm going to go on a limb here and say it's English. ;)

    Oh, obviously - but OTL Louisiana still was French, then, correct?

    Were they less successful at first due to stronger/more fortunate resistance or because of focusing on something else?

    Ah, sorry - that is what I meant. The Portuguese didn't take those convenient spots, so the Flemings took them instead during their quest for a southern route to Asia.
     
  15. Disenfrancised

    Disenfrancised Beep Beep

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    Nope.
    The missisippi basin was still taken by the french and named Louisiana, but differently (damn french just have so many 'Louises' ;))
    The former.
    Is the Flemish Brazilian colony happy to still be ruled from the metropol? I assume its population is quite large by now.
     
  16. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    Dachspmg: nice althist, finally had the opportunity to read it, the premise seems a bit familiar though. ;) Also, glad to see Abraha in an althist. Am quite curious to see how will things work out in Arabia in the short-term.

    I realise that this is a somewhat dubious idea, to say the least, but mightn't he have wanted to assist the Eastern Romans in their war? You know, to win Justinian's favour and placate his nobles with warfare? That option would also let the Frankish worries sleep, and would carry far less genuine risk - even if the Persian campaign is a disaster, the Ostrogoths still won't lose much from it. At the least he could've sent an expeditionary force. Greater contacts with the Middle East might've led to some interesting consequences, religion, tactics and technology-wise.

    What you had him do instead works too, though. ;)

    Chinese!

    Okay, here's my new idea: the Ming Chinese, possibly due to differences in focus, executed a more competent naval and commercial policy, as discussed on some previous occasions; amongst other things, this reinvigorated the Asian naval traditions, making the Portuguese takeover this much more difficult and leading to various other interesting side-effects.
     
  17. silver 2039

    silver 2039 Deity

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    For that wouldn't there be need to be no threath from the Northern barbs as well as a different mindset? Confucian values didn't as I recall promote colonization and such.
     
  18. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    Mindset-schmindset, but the northern barbarians were indeed a big deal; if they were to be made a lesser threat for some reason, or at least if they seemed to be lesser, the Ming might've stayed in Nanjing and carried out a less grandiose, more rational commercial policy.

    Confucian values don't promote a whole damn lot of things that got done nonetheless if the Emperor and his officials felt like it. Also: if a Chinese middle class were to thrive enough, a somewhat Puritan-like business ethics-oriented version of Confucianism would've come to thrive.
     
  19. Thlayli

    Thlayli Le Pétit Prince

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    I too just finished Dachs' althist. Poor student of Late Antiquity as I am, a few questions/comments/death threats:

    It seems kinda weird that Persia wouldn't disintegrate completely in the wake of losing Ctesiphon itself. First off, the Sassanid power base is totally gutted, and I don't see why the nobles/still restless Hunnic migrants wouldn't simply cease to recognize such a disasterously unsuccessful Shah. At the least, fractured successor states, some ethnically Hunnic, would be a cool idea, perhaps leaving a power vacuum for opportunistic Arabs.

    Arabia seems nice...we'll probably have an Axumite disturbance in the Red Sea prevent any type of Islamic formation, a la an earlier Staznes that had an equally hegemonic Eastern Rome. The thought of Arian or Coptic Arabs later making inroads into Mesopotamia and/or Persia is equally interesting.

    This also bodes well for a northwestern centralization of the Frankish cultural influence...Normandy and Ile de France will probably look more German than anything else at this rate. That would, of course, extend the oncoming Magyar influences further into East Francia than *some* might like, but it'll be interesting anyway. Pagan Saxony is like to persist if anyone lets it.
     
  20. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    It's a huge blow, but there are western Persian cities to fall back upon in such an event. It probably won't fall as there is little in the way of a viable alternative; the Huns are way too weak at the moment, having just been thoroughly thrashed.

    Maybe, maybe not. An option that does interest me is the Ghassanids trying to unite Arabia as Roman vassals and with Roman assistance (Axum-Schmaxum, if Justinian looks east he might as well grab all those nice trade routes for himself).

    That's going a bit too far; the Magyars might end up doing much more badly if the Ostrogoths stay strong.
     

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