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Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

Discussion in 'Never Ending Stories' started by Dachs, Jun 5, 2007.

  1. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    I might read that later. When I'm not reinstalling programs... remember kids, it's important your OS actually be in "C:\" and not whatever funky letter you want to give it or are arbitrarily assigned...

    Oh snap, it's Guy Ritchie's Doctor Who, with Jason Statham as the Doctor!
     
  2. Disenfrancised

    Disenfrancised Beep Beep

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    Very impressive, I'm glad everyone loves the grand Roman legacy rather than going for pettiness ;). And a gothic western empire sounds very interesting.

    As easy as that eh? ;)
     
  3. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Sigh...yeah, I figured I'd get that. However, it might make you slightly happier to know that they are but a tool for something else entirely, and will be disposed of at the proper moment.
    Why spend effort on a map when the thing ain't done?
    They are more interesting and will play a major part in the next chapter.
    Seeing as this conquest is significantly easier to hold onto, religiously similar, and not a prime target for barbarians for another hundred years or so, it will probably last longer than the Roman hold on Italy did. And, again, this might not entirely be aimed at "Byzantines" (not quite sure what a "Byzantine" is :p) surviving and/or making lasting conquests.
    Given the temporal proximity to the fall of the West and the fact that old Athalaric, as part of the second-order effects of the PoD, was schooled as his mother originally intended (in the true Late Roman tradition), it makes a good deal of sense. It also makes sense that the Arian Gothic nobles won't see things his way and will duly launch a grand rebellion.
    It ain't new (sort of), but it's significantly better than just having one Empire.
    That's actually still in OTL events, and part of the overall legal recodification under Tribonian. Since it was a major aim of the early part of Justinian's administration, yeah, it was.
     
  4. Disenfrancised

    Disenfrancised Beep Beep

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    A combination of extreme Caesaropapism, ultranationalism (pan-slavic and pan-orthodox too), anti-aristocratic ideas, a lot of the Old Belivers weirdness, and a kind of 'organic unity of the state and people' thing.

    Symphony may find elements of the ideology and policies familar.

    Restored italy centric Roman empire? leading to a long weakened europe?
     
  5. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    Anti-aristocratic or anti-boyar? Because an ideology that is actively oriented against all aristocracy seems... out of place in a traditional monarchy. Not to mention quite useless if not genuinely harmful.

    Now I'm interested. ;)

    Still, I'm not quite sure how would any such ideology assist in expansionism into territories like Anatolia. I recall that personal charisma of certain monarchs was usually of much more use in this kind of endeavours in general, in traditional societies anyway.
     
  6. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    Yes, though I must say I copied many of those attributes directly from the Imperium. ;) It's quite a scary thing to see in Russia; vastly worse than either the typical Tsardom or even the Stalinists, so I give it my approval.

    You just have to be quick about killing them is all... that and getting the military to follow you blindly, anyway.
     
  7. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    The problem is that you still will need intermediaries, and that's what nobles are for; though I suppose that military aristocracy is generally more reliable.
     
  8. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    Precisely... and so much more the better for cajoling the civilian middle management (which you want to be disposable; hence elected officials [this also gives the ruled the illusion they have some say in government, and reduces overhead by farming out peripheral tasks]) with, since in the last resort, the military has guns and the civilians are stuck with pens.

    It maximizes central control at the top while still accommodating local interests at the bottom. The military is pacified with large budgets, resources, and operations, and in turn they're much more useful than aristocracy who demand more fluffy bribes. And if you should twist elements of populism into it, then the people support it all in the name of the motherland and the faith. It's a good way to run a dictatorship.

    Under an established system like that, rather than a nascent one (which is all I've ever been able to take the concept to without the game dying or being viciously assaulted :p) I can see Russia having a rather strong gamut of successes, as necessary for Dis' map.
     
  9. Demetrias

    Demetrias Emperor

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    Military Aristocracy has a tendency to make them selves into Nobles. Also just stream lining the tax system wouldn't be enough because of how much stuff Justinian would build and how much money was still owed to the army. You can't build the Hagia Sophia and all those other cool buildings and pay off decades of debt to the army.
     
  10. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Anastasius was enough of a penny pincher to give Justinian a sufficient war chest for a coupla conflicts in OTL (that was one of the reasons there was civil disobedience during his reign, along with the minor issue of monophysitism); as I've said before, the tax system reform, along with the legal recodification, took place before the freaking PoD, and since they were sufficient to allow a much more comprehensive and destructive run of conquest in OTL (war in North Africa, extremely long and bloody war in Italy, two wars against Persia) then it should be enough for a significantly curtailed program in TTL.

    I think it's hilarious that the least objectionable part of the timeline (as in, something that happened before I changed stuff around) is what's gotten the only complaints/comments. :lol:
     
  11. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    That's sort of what aristocracy means. ;)
     
  12. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Yeah, I'd have been interested in seeing how that military imperium in DisNES II Russia developed after the war with the Ottomans concluded. Wasn't there some kind of diplomatic reshuffling there at the end? - I wasn't really privy to IP's, das', and Symphony's orders. :p
     
  13. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    Not that I know of. :p All of mine were posted after I bailed, if I remember properly. My strategy was bad, Panda was really flaking out in the war anyway, silver had gotten everyone distracted, and the war was going to keep going for awhile. Russia was pretty screwed, even if it had wound up on the "winning" side.

    If it's any consolation, the Russia in Josef's game was following a fairly similar trajectory... ;) But once again most everyone but myself and das got flaky. If I had to try it again I'd probably do it under the aegis of Stalinism instead.
     
  14. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Wait, what was silver doing?
    IIRC it was already put on that track by das in the TL itself.
    "Flaky"? I was just starting out by the end...first good domestic orders I've ever done, and they get tossed out the window. :(
     
  15. ThomAnder

    ThomAnder Deity

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    Silver was fighting a war with IP and Cuiv i believe. (he was france) At the end he went on a rampage and razed Cuiv's capital, while his nation was merged with Josef's england
     
  16. silver 2039

    silver 2039 Deity

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    I was fighting against Aragon, Iberia, Savoy, Holy Romans, Kalamar, Papal, and Navarre. And yes I rampaged through Aragon and razed several cities not just the capital. I also wiped out Navare's army and burnt half their county, shredded the Iberian army, those . .. .. .. .. .. .. ., forced Kalamar out, rampaged through Burgundy, and wiped out many other armies. Oh the sheer bloodshed and destruction, it was stupendous.
     
  17. Disenfrancised

    Disenfrancised Beep Beep

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    Well I dunno, your strategy would have been good if those unfortunate mistakes in your operating assumptions had been correct, and the big one is an easy mistake to make - after all everyone always pictures the numberless Russian hordes, not realizing that that was very much a late-18th century onwards thing.

    Though this Russia has some of the problems I foresaw for yours - strong anti-intellectualism (and thus a large trailing in science and technical capacity only commuted by espionage and the willingness of allies to assist for high wages - thus a lot of the Holy Russian Empires infrastructure was designed and managed by Scottish engineers...though none of them wanted to settle down ;)), a tiny/absent investing class (and while government mandates can get the big stuff done, I maintain they are inefficient when it comes to details (and changing ones at that), hence huge railway projects and a glorious capital whilst other cities being really rather crappy).

    And of course if you get a stupid or lackluster Tsar (as they occasionally did)...

    @das
    Anti-Boyer mainly, though since the Russians main rivals have strong aristocratic characters its become a more widespread belief that all men are equal (with the except of the clergy and the Tsar's divine right)...though Slavs are obviously more equal than other races ;).

    Oh those elements of ideology really helped out much earlier (and the Russians are reaping the result now), when the alt-Nikon pissed off the Tsar, who turned to endorsing the schismatics (who were stronger due to ATL demographic and economic shifts). This alliance resulted in anti-boyer actions and an earlier reduction in feudal oppression (to a net demographic benefit which obviously compounds with time), as well as the Tsars using nobles as scapegoats quite often, and the monarchy have much greater control over the church. It also strengthened the image of Moscow as the guardian of orthodox Christianity - with a long term goal of bringing the old byzantine territories back into being much more deeply ingrained into the psyche of the commen man, and the Russians having elements of fanaticism to motivate their (non-serf) soldiers.
     
  18. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Yeah, I remember that, but that was way before the game ended. I thought that he was referring to something concurrent with the later stages of the eastern war ("Alacakaranlik", as I recall, was the spotlight for either the last or the penultimate update).
    Even then in the end he started rectifying that with attempts to start long-term population increases, right?
     
  19. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    I can only see that being a temporary thing until industrialization starts to catch on. Its very difficult for a state dependent upon the military to not develop a military-industrial complex, with all the assorted technical experience that requires. The Soviet Union was in a similar boat and developed its own unique approach (the "closed" and "science" cities). I'm not saying it would happen immediately or even soon, but the possibility of a highly militant European country remaining a permanent technological backwater is remote at best.

    Cold comfort. :p On the other hand, I do always ask about my manpower situation now though.

    Like that matters when you're in the middle of a war. :p I depleted my prisoner system as conscripts and began focusing on quality and technology.

    I have also never, ever forgiven the Greeks for their adamant refusal to rebel in that game, despite killing multiple Patriarchs and high-ranking traitors in their Orthodox Church and with European armies bearing down towards them. So much hate... I don't care what das did to ensure their loyalty. The empire was crumbling in that sector. It was inexcusable. They've done more for far less in virtually every other game. :gripe:
     
  20. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    Err, killing multiple Patriarchs? ;) I don't even remember you killing off any lower-ranking Phanariots.
     

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