Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

[Dachs]

The...Bulgarians defeated the Turks at Adrianople without help? That's interesting. Prediction: failure of the antireformists in war screws them over and allows Koca Mustafa Reşid Pasha, Fuad Pasha, and Ali Pasha an opening. Just guessing?

Also, ah, could we get some dates?

 

[das]

Will come up with something more detailed later, but I'm not sure if the Austrians would have it quite that easy while invading an autonomous Serbia. The Serbians seem far more likely to raise a battle-worthy army at the time than the Bulgarians, though a Bulgarian uprising at that time is indeed likely (don't recall the details off hand, but I think Rakovski had a pro-Russia conspiracy going during the Crimean War?). On the other hand, I doubt it would have achieved much without direct large-scale Russian military support (seizing Sofia would've been a huge challenge; Adrianople seems completely impossible), and that would've "upset" Austria. Then it would be the Crimean War all over again, except inasmuch as the Ottoman Empire would've collapsed before Britain could start an amphibious invasion of Crimea, turning it into a landgrab more or less as described.

Also, going back to Serbia, Austria itself is quite shaken from the 1840s; would it even want to annex Serbia and add a large new troublesome minority instead of letting the reasonably pro-Austrian dynasty rule as an ally and puppet?

In general, though, this seems a bit too soon. To be sure, it is not impossible for the ramshackle Ottoman Empire to collapse during the 1850s, especially with decreased European backing and government prestige, but I think it didn't pass beyond that critical point where every coup meant an immediate collapse of the Balkan empire just yet. A slow decline after a reactionary coup, political infighting in the capital, uprisings and reprisals in the provinces, gradual loss of international good will over said reprisals and a collapse somewhere in the 1860s would seem rather more plausible.

 

[Thlayli]

Good NESers and Althistorians All,

This forum used to have new, exciting althists turned into NESes on a regular basis. That is no longer the case.

I know that the old guard of folks still interested in althist NESing is here. Some of you are in BirdNES. Some of you are lurking. Anyways. I became convinced that the need for this is greater than a revived Nessos. And it truly is.

I'm looking to moderate a good TL, pre-modern in time period, namely 1000-1500. (There's some flexibility here.) A pre-existing map isn't required, but strongly encouraged. For ruleset, I plan on an adapted AFSNES model, with das' permission. If you have any interesting TL's looking for a mod, please PM the details to me. I'd appreciate it.

 

[Dachs]

What if somebody takes that Swiss idea of das' and makes it happen? That's within the requisite time period, off the top of my head. I'm just afraid that if I try to write something it'll by a Romanowank and nobody wants another one of those.

I'm interested in whatever comes up, fwiw, and will definitely help on development.

 

[Kraznaya]

Good NESers and Althistorians All,

This forum used to have new, exciting althists turned into NESes on a regular basis. That is no longer the case.

I know that the old guard of folks still interested in althist NESing is here. Some of you are in BirdNES. Some of you are lurking. Anyways. I became convinced that the need for this is greater than a revived Nessos. And it truly is.

I'm looking to moderate a good TL, pre-modern in time period, namely 1000-1500. (There's some flexibility here.) A pre-existing map isn't required, but strongly encouraged. For ruleset, I plan on an adapted AFSNES model, with das' permission. If you have any interesting TL's looking for a mod, please PM the details to me. I'd appreciate it.

I heartily agree with this sentiment. Have you checked this for possibilities?

 

[Azale]

Good NESers and Althistorians All,

This forum used to have new, exciting althists turned into NESes on a regular basis. That is no longer the case.

I know that the old guard of folks still interested in althist NESing is here. Some of you are in BirdNES. Some of you are lurking. Anyways. I became convinced that the need for this is greater than a revived Nessos. And it truly is.

I'm looking to moderate a good TL, pre-modern in time period, namely 1000-1500. (There's some flexibility here.) A pre-existing map isn't required, but strongly encouraged. For ruleset, I plan on an adapted AFSNES model, with das' permission. If you have any interesting TL's looking for a mod, please PM the details to me. I'd appreciate it.

Here are the maps I have that fit...somewhat into that timeframe These are all borderline or during the Industrial Revolution, so probably not what you're looking for:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

If there is further interest, I can dig through the past AH threads and try to find the bits of timelines associated with the maps.

 

[Thlayli]

Thanks Azale.

The first one is cool, but I think that France is too overpowered. The second, I'd have to write up stats for all those annoying German states...no thanks.

The third one...is actually pretty interesting. I'll take a look at the TL if you can find it.

 

[Thlayli]

What if somebody takes that Swiss idea of das' and makes it happen? That's within the requisite time period, off the top of my head. I'm just afraid that if I try to write something it'll by a Romanowank and nobody wants another one of those.

Okay, let's say no to emo-Dachs and yes to TL-writing Dachs.

Certain third parties have already expressed potential willingness to help with the mapping.

 

[Dachs]

Okay, let's say no to emo-Dachs and yes to TL-writing Dachs.

Certain third parties have already expressed potential willingness to help with the mapping.

I already have two projects, neither one of which is getting closer to "done" during finals week barring an act of serious irresponsibility on my part. Like I said, I'll help with hashing things out and stats.

The first two of das' maps that Azale threw out there are quite familiar (I remember helping to suggest the second one ) but the third one seems older. What's that from?

 

[das]

What's that from?

Age of Unenlightenment. The French went (even more) crazy with power in the 17th century and the culprit, the Great Conde, briefly became the Holy Roman Emperor before getting piled upon by a huge coalition. Consensus was that Spain and Britain are too overpowered, but if we can somehow model imperial overstretch accurately then all should be passable. Also there was steam-powered weirdness towards the end of that one, and an ongoing French revolution-cum-independence war.

 

[Dachs]

Age of Unenlightenment. The French went (even more) crazy with power in the 17th century and the culprit, the Great Conde, briefly became the Holy Roman Emperor before getting piled upon by a huge coalition. Consensus was that Spain and Britain are too overpowered. Also there was steam-powered weirdness towards the end of that one.

Oh, that's the map for the Condean TL? I think I printed it out somewhere, haven't read it in years though. Yeah, those two do look sick.

In case Thlayli isn't decided on any one of those I recommend exploring the possibilities for Burgundian survival, because that doesn't happen often enough.

 

[das]

I'd argue FK was worse... but not by much.

 

[Dachs]

Ninja above.

I'd argue FK was worse... but not by much.

Ahhh, good times. France + Spain should've been more powerful than it was, though.

 

[das]

Burgundy, other (earlier) Burgundy, Aragon, Great Moravia... any other interesting Medieval would-be nation states we could preserve?

 

[Dachs]

Burgundy, other (earlier) Burgundy, Aragon, Great Moravia... any other interesting Medieval would-be nation states we could preserve?

Galicia? The Despotate of Epirus? And how about a different Turkish emirate, if only because the Ottomans are getting old? Karaman? Germiyan?

 

[das]

Which Galicia? But I suppose the various Russian principalities are interesting as well, increasingly differentiated as they were getting.

 

[Dachs]

Which Galicia?

Both!

Now all we need to do is figure out a marginally plausible PoD.

 

[Thlayli]

It would be nice to mess around with the Crusades during the course of this, as well.

Perhaps incorporate some of those fun Norman possibilities that were bouncing around earlier. (Weaker Turks might mean long-term establishment of a Latin/Armenian state in Antioch, which is a fun nation-state possibility.)

 

[Kraznaya]

A viable Armenia would be fun, yes. Although I don't think I could resist creating a Petra Arkanian..

 

[Dachs]

It would be nice to mess around with the Crusades during the course of this, as well.

Perhaps incorporate some of those fun Norman possibilities that were bouncing around earlier. (Weaker Turks might mean long-term establishment of a Latin/Armenian state in Antioch, which is a fun nation-state possibility.)

Since Antioch was the primary target of the Komneni, to the detriment - insensibly! - of Anatolia, I seriously doubt that.