Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

What other path could it possibly follow at that point?
The king sovereign over both the nation and the church, the fyrd developing further into a national army, increasing development of the witan, the powerful suppressed, royal agents increasingly responsible for administration. The Tudor model, in short. The Normans did introduce some of the later apparatuses of the state, notably a proto-chancery, which would have some effects that I can't be bothered to think of at the moment.
Can't have foreign kings holding French lands.
But the English have an advantage over the Normans in that they aren't technically vassals of the French king. Might not the French nobility either switch allegiances or threaten to switch allegiances to counter the steadily, if slowly, growing power of the Capetians? I seem to recall similar things happening during the Angevin Empire.
They certainly would try to throw them out, and I'm pretty sure they will succeed in the end.
In the end, sure. But it took five hundred years in OTL.

By giving it an experienced and well-developed feudal class as opposed to making it develop its own.
First, that's a bad thing. Second, the Norman feudal class wasn't all that well developed. As Stenton said, Normandy, compared with England, was a state in the making.
 
The Tudor model, in short.

Impracticable in the 11th century due to a much weaker and less developed urban middle class. Sure, it was quite good for its times, but not nearly good enough, if only for technological reasons.

Might not the French nobility either switch allegiances or threaten to switch allegiances to counter the steadily, if slowly, growing power of the Capetians?

You yourself just said that they were for all purposes impotent, while the Anglo-Saxons you claim to be militarily powerful and actively willing to commit to long-term warfare in northern France. If anything, this might cause the French nobles to rally around the king, who would be the weaker party here. Things might ofcourse get more tricky if the Anglo-Saxons were to take Paris or if the war were to extend into southern France, but otherwise the northern nobles will follow the king and the southern ones wouldn't do much, because, as already said, they have other ambitions.

In the end, sure. But it took five hundred years in OTL.

That's quite a simplification. At any rate, in OTL the English had a much stronger foothold in Normandy because they did not have to actually conquer it. Which is why the serious fighting came so much later.
 
Sure, it was quite good for its times, but not nearly good enough, if only for technological reasons.
Perhaps. I've never really liked the argument that feudalism is a necessary product of technology.
You yourself just said that they were for all purposes impotent, while the Anglo-Saxons you claim to be militarily powerful and actively willing to commit to long-term warfare in northern France.
I was thinking more of the twelfth century, but at any rate I didn't say the English would commit to a long term campaign to conquer France. Rather that Harold, who's been strongly anti-Norman his entire life, would take the opportunity presented by the decapitation of the Norman state and destruction of the Norman army to take over the Duchy. Said conquest has every reason to be of rather shorter duration than the Norman conquest of England.
If anything, this might cause the French nobles to rally around the king, who would be the weaker party here.
I don't see it happening. They didn't do so in OTL, and an English conquest of Normandy doesn't change the political situation that much. The Norman Dukes as subservient to the king was largely a convenient later invention; things were far less clear cut at the time. William's Normandy was run as an independent state, to a greater degree even than the other feudal principalities, and was recognized as such. The French king never even pretended to be suzerain over William's Duchy. After the Conquest, William was seen as a king and acted as a king. Remember, in the eleventh century kingship is less of a legal status than a sacral quality; William did not cease to be a king when he went to Normandy. Things changed later, but there is every indication that William was regarded as a king in Normandy by both his subjects and everyone else. Now, if William holding Normandy and engaging in aggression on the continent didn't provoke the French nobles to spontaneously unite around their king, why should things be different for Harold?
quite a simplification. At any rate, in OTL the English had a much stronger foothold in Normandy because they did not have to actually conquer it. Which is why the serious fighting came so much later.
Might be more accurate to say that the Normans had a strong foothold in England. At any rate, one might say that the only reason the English kings lost Normandy was because they weren't satisfied with it, and always had their eye on the crown of France; which problem Anglo-Saxons would not have. I would also point out that the English hold on Normandy wasn't without issues. Henry I had to go conquer it from his brother.
 
Really? Why not? The development of technologies that massively favoured the defense >> easy creation of small independent power bases of powerful nobles. Sounds reasonable to me.

Strange, that, because the gunpowder fortress never caused political devolution on a grand scale. And most precursors to feudalism seemed to revolve around military recruitment more than anything else: see the Byzantine themes.
 
Really? Why not? The development of technologies that massively favoured the defense >> easy creation of small independent power bases of powerful nobles. Sounds reasonable to me.

I agree...note that the decline of fedualisim occurred with the advent of gunpowder and cannons which could finally effectively decimate castle defences.

Strange, that, because the gunpowder fortress never caused political devolution on a grand scale

Because other gunpowder weapons could decimate as easily. Compare the gunpowder fortress to the medival fortress and how much more difficult and lengthy it was to seige one with trebuchates and such than with cannons.
 
Really? Why not? The development of technologies that massively favoured the defense >> easy creation of small independent power bases of powerful nobles. Sounds reasonable to me.
I prefer the breakdown of the money economy as a determining factor, though even then it seems to me that feudalism's temporary ubiquity was the result of several unhappy accidents. To my mind, the best argument against technological determinism is the fact that feudalism in England came and went without any major technological shifts. It may even be argued that England was never really feudal. If you don't accept that, then feudalism was introduced by William, entered steep decline with the accession of Plantagenet, and was practically extinct by 1215. Even the most liberal evaluations don't project it much past 1300.
 
Because other gunpowder weapons could decimate as easily. Compare the gunpowder fortress to the medival fortress and how much more difficult and lengthy it was to seige one with trebuchates and such than with cannons.
I would submit that you are mistaken. Compare the great swathes of territory taken by the Normans, the English, and the French in the medieval period with relatively little bloodshed with the enormous expenditure for practically no gain by Louis XIV, Charles V, and so on. A well built trace italienne was practically impregnable.
 
Because other gunpowder weapons could decimate as easily. Compare the gunpowder fortress to the medival fortress and how much more difficult and lengthy it was to seige one with trebuchates and such than with cannons.

This is laughably wrong. As Perfectionist noted, it was essentially impossible to take a properly built gunpowder fortress except by literally years of siege. They were only rendered irrelevant by Napoleonic tactics, which were able to basically ignore them.

I'd say that Castles:Non-gunpowder weapons >>> Bastions:Cannons.

You would be wrong. You could take a Castle by storm if you really wanted to. If you tried the same thing against a gunpowder fortress, you'd be slaughtered. The only real option was to siege it to pieces.

Plus a possible case could be made for bastions preventing the centralization of the Italian states, or at least being a contributory factor.

Then why didn't they have the same effect on France, whose political power grew, if anything, more centralized? And the Netherlands, which integrated into one nation despite the new fortifications.
 
I think the point is that the entire concept of siege warfare emphasizes a feudal political system, as strategically relevant strongpoints have to be held by lords that owe their allegiance to the king, since he can't do it himself.

The other point being that feudalism was a necessary outgrowth of the medieval period, due to the difficulties of direct royal control over large areas of territory. Siege warfare and feudalism went hand in hand.

Feudalism declined early in England due to a combination of factors, but I agree with the idea that a Norman invasion increased centralization, at least in the long term. Also, no one's really examined the cultural and linguistic impact of the invasion, which is also really relevant.
 
Then why didn't they have the same effect on France, whose political power grew, if anything, more centralized? And the Netherlands, which integrated into one nation despite the new fortifications.
There have been arguments over the actual centralization of French power under the Sun King, but at least it didn't increase, so the basic point here is correct. Just being nitpicky.
 
Perhaps. I've never really liked the argument that feudalism is a necessary product of technology.

What I meant was that the Tudors had the printing press and suchlike, but Disenfrancised is right too.

Rather that Harold, who's been strongly anti-Norman his entire life, would take the opportunity presented by the decapitation of the Norman state and destruction of the Norman army to take over the Duchy. Said conquest has every reason to be of rather shorter duration than the Norman conquest of England.

Unless the Anglo-Saxons don't get a lot of luck early on. I still suspect that such an invasion would bog down.

Might be more accurate to say that the Normans had a strong foothold in England.

How about this - Anglo-Normans had a strong hold on Normandy.

Plus a possible case could be made for bastions preventing the centralization of the Italian states, or at least being a contributory factor.

Contributory. Italians had too many cities and too much sea, so there was neither an obvious unification centre nor a strong enough internal trade motivator. Fortresses just appeared along the way to help prevent a military unification, and then were upgraded further.

I think it is simply foolish to consider feudalism an "unhappy accident". It isn't really an "accident" when it happens in all kinds of regions in different time periods along similar lines.
 
What I meant was that the Tudors had the printing press and suchlike, but Disenfrancised is right too.
I don't really see how the printing press is necessary for a strong monarchy or some semblance of efficient bureaucracy. Earlier countries seemed to manage without it.

Unless the Anglo-Saxons don't get a lot of luck early on. I still suspect that such an invasion would bog down.
Who needs luck when you've already destroyed the army and leadership of the enemy? England wasn't able to effectively resist after Hastings; I don't see why Normandy would be different.
 
I don't really see how the printing press is necessary for a strong monarchy or some semblance of efficient bureaucracy. Earlier countries seemed to manage without it.

What I meant was that it is strongly contributive to the rise of a strong middle class.

Thing is, a strong monarchy requires a solid social power base, and I do not see the evidence of such in Anglo-Saxon England. What existed was neither stable nor trully reliable; besides, you yourself have said that Anglo-Saxon kings had to intimidate their enemies by force, and that naturally necessitates feudalism.

England wasn't able to effectively resist after Hastings; I don't see why Normandy would be different.

Because Hastings was in England, not in Normandy. By the time the Anglo-Saxons are ready to counter-attack, the Normans would have either recovered enough to defend or fallen to continental foes, who would then defend their conquest all the same.
 
What I meant was that it is strongly contributive to the rise of a strong middle class.
Really? I've not heard that claim before. Even Eisenstein doesn't go so far. Also, isn't that whole idea that the middle class 'rose' in the early modern period in disfavour at the moment?
besides, you yourself have said that Anglo-Saxon kings had to intimidate their enemies by force, and that naturally necessitates feudalism.
I would argue that the ability to successfully intimidate enemies of the crown is one of the key features of strong central monarchy. Certainly, the classically feudal monarchs couldn't do it, and the demise of feudalism coincided with a rise in the use of such tactics by monarchs.
Because Hastings was in England, not in Normandy. By the time the Anglo-Saxons are ready to counter-attack, the Normans would have either recovered enough to defend
In six months the Normans would breed three thousand new soldiers, find the money for five thousand mercenaries, and rally around the thirteen year old Duke, all while dealing with the loss of a large portion of their nobility?

or fallen to continental foes, who would then defend their conquest all the same.
First, it takes a significant amount of time to gather a feudal army; William spent almost nine months on his. Harold had his army together from the start; any continental opportunist would have to gather his, by which time Harold would likely be across. Second, the most likely continental aggressor, Anjou, is in the middle of a war for leadership. Third, I'm not sure any of the other French feudals could mount a campaign of the requisite size and duration, or would dare to fight Harold if push came to shove.
 
Also, isn't that whole idea that the middle class 'rose' in the early modern period in disfavour at the moment?

Is it?

At any rate, decentralised feudal management is generally contributive to local economic development.

I would argue that the ability to successfully intimidate enemies of the crown is one of the key features of strong central monarchy.

And I would argue that its ultimate impracticability is one of the main sources of the rise of feudalism, as already expounded above. The king and his army can't be everywhere at once; he cannot intimidate everyone by himself, so he is forced to use intermediaries.

Furthermore, long-term strong monarchy is impracticable unless the dynasties change a lot. It will rot eventually. Resistance is futile. ;)

the demise of feudalism coincided with a rise in the use of such tactics by monarchs.

And the rise in use of such tactics by monarchs was a result of the development of a favourable technological and social situation.

Look, the bottom-line is, there is no way for an early medieval monarchy to remain strong and centralised. You are yet to give any convicing arguments that could not be given for OTL strong centralised early medieval monarchies that still DID undergo a prolonged period of feudalism after that in spite of said arguments.

Harold had his army together from the start

His army is weakened and tired, and major preparations are needed for a proper campaign.

Furthermore, you are making rather unjustified presumptions aobut the extent of Norman weakness. How do we know that they would lose such a large portion of their nobility? And that said nobility won't drag down a large amount of Anglo-Saxons with it if it is lost?

I must also add that I still fail to see any real purpose for such a senseless foreign adventure.
 
It could be argued that William the Conqueror did bring continental feudalism to England, by parceling out the conquered lands among his military supporters after Hasting.

At the same time, he increased stability at the expense of centralization by making the new class of nobility completely dependent on the crown.
 
And I would argue that its ultimate impracticability is one of the main sources of the rise of feudalism, as already expounded above. The king and his army can't be everywhere at once; he cannot intimidate everyone by himself, so he is forced to use intermediaries.
But he is not forced to mortgage his long term security in order to secure the services of those intermediaries. Otherwise, every state that has ever existed would have been feudal
Look, the bottom-line is, there is no way for an early medieval monarchy to remain strong and centralised.
One hundred and fifty years is not long enough to count?
You are yet to give any convicing arguments that could not be given for OTL strong centralised early medieval monarchies that still DID undergo a prolonged period of feudalism after that in spite of said arguments.
But you have not given any convincing arguments as to why an unconquered England should be much more feudal and much less centralized and stable, and possess much less national loyalty than OTL England.
His army is weakened and tired, and major preparations are needed for a proper campaign.
No, not really. You just get some ships together, not that hard, and go live off the land. Harold doesn't even have to worry about shipping warhorses across, which was one of William's bigger problems.
Furthermore, you are making rather unjustified presumptions aobut the extent of Norman weakness.
I'll go through my thought process then. First, I am assuming that William was defeated in a battle somewhat similar to OTL Hastings, except further inland and with more soldiers, particularly archers, on the English side. When William's Bretons break, the English maintain discipline, so the Norman charge breaks on the shield wall. Seeing this, the right wing joins the Bretons in flight. The Normans in the center stand, holding just long enough to be surrounded by overwhelming numbers of English. They are subsequently almost totally wiped out, including William himself. His army loses whatever sense of cohesion it had and begins a panicked rush to the boats, with Harold in pursuit. Large numbers of Norman soldiers are lost and rounded up by the English, the natives turn on the invaders, and in all the confusion, only a small fraction of the Normans manage to get on the boats and get away. Considering Hastings, where Harold's death led to a rout and a significant proportion of the English nobility died on the field, the scenario seems reasonable.

Now, William's force was about seven or eight thousand men, approximately equal with the English forces at Hastings. However, while that was rather less than England's full strength, the Norman force was significantly more than existed in Normandy itself. A couple thousand were Norman, representing pretty much everything Normandy could muster, while the rest were Breton and Flemish mercenaries and poor knights from all over northern France. William couldn't pay them all with money, so he of course had to promise land after a successful conquest. With his defeat, his army gets nothing, except a Saxon axe between the eyes. I doubt that many people would listen to Norman promises after such a debacle. Therefore, William's successor would be forced to defend with only the resources of Normandy itself. However, the majority of the Norman army went to England, including all the best troops and most of the top nobility, and most of them died there. It therefore seems pretty reasonable to think that Harold could take perhaps ten thousand men to Normandy against three or four thousand Normans, at most.

I must also add that I still fail to see any real purpose for such a senseless foreign adventure.
Settling a long held grudge, ensuring that Normandy won't ever threaten Harold again, conquering a very rich, populous and urbanized area, and securing the Channel against any possible naval attack. Apart from anything else, ensuring that Normandy was in friendly hands was the crucial aspect of English foreign policy for about seventy years. That's why William was in a position to make a claim.
 
Back
Top Bottom