Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

[Disenfrancised]

Okay, here's my new idea: the Ming Chinese, possibly due to differences in focus, executed a more competent naval and commercial policy, as discussed on some previous occasions; amongst other things, this reinvigorated the Asian naval traditions, making the Portuguese takeover this much more difficult and leading to various other interesting side-effects.

Yes, well the Ming had greater commerical competence at least and seaward focus (to their eventual detriment), but thats still an effect, not the PoD .

 

[silver 2039]

Yes, well the Ming had greater commerical competence at least and seaward focus (to their eventual detriment), but thats still an effect, not the Pod

So does it have something to do with the Manchu? Or lack of?

 

[das]

Did they move the capital back to Nanjing, or did they never move it to Beijing in the first place? Actually, did they have Beijing in the first place? Maybe the PoD was that the reconquest was somewhat less successful, leading to the Ming focusing on the south after failing to reclaim the far north?

 

[Disenfrancised]

Did they move the capital back to Nanjing, or did they never move it to Beijing in the first place? Actually, did they have Beijing in the first place? Maybe the PoD was that the reconquest was somewhat less successful, leading to the Ming focusing on the south after failing to reclaim the far north?

The second (moving to Beijing was very much an act of contingency after all), though the Hongwu Emperor did manage to retake and sack it. Naturally in later years keeping the capital in the south and facing the sea resulted in less military preparedness in the north...

@Silver: the Manchu are a good bit later on, and didn't go exactly like the OTL

 

[das]

Oh! The Jianwen Emperor either pre-empted or defeated Prince Zhu Di's bid for power.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Oh! The Jianwen Emperor either pre-empted or defeated Prince Zhu Di's bid for power.

Happened, but wasn't the PoD. Zhu Di was posted to a different area (since he seemed like the most military competent of the princes I assumed he would be put where the greatest threat was...) due to differing circumstances, that made it easier for Jianwen to have him arrested. And obviously with Jianwen in charge I had free reign to change lots of stuff from then on .

 

[das]

Okay. So, wokou activities are more intense early on, possibly due to changes in Japan, leading to Zhu Di being deployed somewhere in the central coastal regions where he is much easier to catch from Nanjing?

 

[Disenfrancised]

Okay. So, wokou activities are more intense early on, possibly due to changes in Japan, leading to Zhu Di being deployed somewhere in the central coastal regions where he is much easier to catch from Nanjing?

Pretty much how it went down yeah. You're getting very close to the PoD now...
See this is why your guess the PoD maps are unfair - very few of us know enough history to follow down these obscure event chains .

 

[ThomAnder]

Japan fell to mongols early on thus becoming enemy of Ming?

 

[Dachs]

Thanks for the comments, and for the clearing up of those points, das.

Dachspmg: nice althist, finally had the opportunity to read it, the premise seems a bit familiar though. Also, glad to see Abraha in an althist. Am quite curious to see how will things work out in Arabia in the short-term.

It should be familiar, but I had an outline for something sort of like what you had already anyway. Abraha will be...fun.

I realise that this is a somewhat dubious idea, to say the least, but mightn't he have wanted to assist the Eastern Romans in their war? You know, to win Justinian's favour and placate his nobles with warfare? That option would also let the Frankish worries sleep, and would carry far less genuine risk - even if the Persian campaign is a disaster, the Ostrogoths still won't lose much from it. At the least he could've sent an expeditionary force. Greater contacts with the Middle East might've led to some interesting consequences, religion, tactics and technology-wise.

What you had him do instead works too, though.

I guess it would have been conceivable, at least, but the sheer logistics would have been frightening to say the least. Besides, the Frankish intervention has entertaining consequences in Installment 2 (going up in less than a week, hopefully very much less if I can work on Martin Luther King Jr. Day). That's really not a viable reason to have something occur in a TL, I know, but there is a little bit of history behind it (what with the somewhat revanchist Visigoths, and the collapse of Burgundy to the Franks just right then) and it is a more convenient target.

It seems kinda weird that Persia wouldn't disintegrate completely in the wake of losing Ctesiphon itself. First off, the Sassanid power base is totally gutted, and I don't see why the nobles/still restless Hunnic migrants wouldn't simply cease to recognize such a disasterously unsuccessful Shah. At the least, fractured successor states, some ethnically Hunnic, would be a cool idea, perhaps leaving a power vacuum for opportunistic Arabs.

As of immediately after the peace treaty, the Sassanid state officially exists. However, the 550s do make things decidedly interesting in Persia as well as in Italy, especially since the dehgans are proportionally much more powerful than the Ostrogothic Arian nobles. Meanwhile, we have Hephthalites able to intervene, and the Avar Empire collapsing off to the northeast a ways...Persia has been extremely interesting to write about so far.

Arabia seems nice...we'll probably have an Axumite disturbance in the Red Sea prevent any type of Islamic formation, a la an earlier Staznes that had an equally hegemonic Eastern Rome. The thought of Arian or Coptic Arabs later making inroads into Mesopotamia and/or Persia is equally interesting.

Arian Arabs? Axum is sort of on the money ish. Without giving away too much about what happens later, I will say that through Abraha and his successors, Axum does enter about a century and a half of Golden Age starting now.

This also bodes well for a northwestern centralization of the Frankish cultural influence...Normandy and Ile de France will probably look more German than anything else at this rate.

The loss of Burgundy, given the Ostrogothic/Western Roman civil war, is probably going to be extremely temporary. Just a thought.

That would, of course, extend the oncoming Magyar influences further into East Francia than *some* might like, but it'll be interesting anyway. Pagan Saxony is like to persist if anyone lets it.

The Magyars would have to go through Ostrogothic/Western Roman Pannonia in order to get there. That in itself would be difficult enough; I don't see the Magyars being able to maintain their OTL conquering lifestyle without the plains of the Alföld. And the civil war will have an interesting effect on the Lombards, too, and they are also in the way...stay tuned, anyway.

It's a huge blow, but there are western Persian cities to fall back upon in such an event. It probably won't fall as there is little in the way of a viable alternative; the Huns are way too weak at the moment, having just been thoroughly thrashed.

They are extremely weak, but Khosrau will be unable to attack them as he did in OTL (although I guess the Gokturks did have a greater influence on the Huns' fall). Too, there are a few Persian cities to fall back on in the Zagros, but Persia itself will have a vastly smaller population base to work from, and since, unlike the Parthians (when they lost Mesopotamia to Trajan), a large chunk of the Sassanid power base is in Mesopotamia itself...

Maybe, maybe not. An option that does interest me is the Ghassanids trying to unite Arabia as Roman vassals and with Roman assistance (Axum-Schmaxum, if Justinian looks east he might as well grab all those nice trade routes for himself).

Justinian is worried more about other things in a different cardinal direction right now, and will soon die, leaving the throne to Justin II. Bwahahaha...but the Ghassanids, since the Lakhmids have virtually collapsed, will have a good deal of fun in Arabia.

 

[das]

Pretty much how it went down yeah. You're getting very close to the PoD now...

However, I am now quite lost. The PoD is probably either in Korea or Japan, but this is quite obscure. Did the North and South courts fail to reunite? Did the opposite happen earlier and/or better, causing an overconfident new government to try its fortunes against China? Did Yi Seonggye die early or otherwise fail in his struggle with the wokou?

See this is why your guess the PoD maps are unfair - very few of us know enough history to follow down these obscure event chains .

Ideally that's supposed to make you try and catch up. Practically... maybe not.

Also, most of them aren't all that obscure. Sometimes I just obfuscate them a lot, and then you couldn't really guess it. Then again, I suppose that Eastern European history can get a bit obscure if you don't even bother reading up on the most significant events.

Japan fell to mongols early on thus becoming enemy of Ming?

a) That's pretty ridiculous for many reasons. Even if it happened, Mongols had no way of retaining control over Japan, not without utterly disintegrating amongst the Japanese and so having minimal long-term effect;
b) Whether or not the Japanese government is opposed to China matters not one bit - the wokou acted of their own accord, and raided China not out of particular enmity but rather because it was there.

The Magyars would have to go through Ostrogothic/Western Roman Pannonia in order to get there. That in itself would be difficult enough; I don't see the Magyars being able to maintain their OTL conquering lifestyle without the plains of the Alföld. And the civil war will have an interesting effect on the Lombards, too, and they are also in the way...stay tuned, anyway.

As said, Thlayli was getting ahead of himself there. We have to do the Avars first.

Too, there are a few Persian cities to fall back on in the Zagros, but Persia itself will have a vastly smaller population base to work from, and since, unlike the Parthians (when they lost Mesopotamia to Trajan), a large chunk of the Sassanid power base is in Mesopotamia itself...

I am quite sure they could survive in Persia alone - just not as a great power. Then again, ofcourse, they could be swept aside when stronger enemies come by.

Bwahahaha

Make him refuse to abdicate at the last moment. Then it will be truly Bwahahaha-worthy.

 

[ThomAnder]

The wokou only became a serious threat in the later parts of 15th century and 16th century in part due to decreasing power and stagnation of the shogunate i thought. If the POD is earlier than this, then i don't think the wokou would pose a serious threat unless organized by someone else

 

[das]

No, they were pretty serious in the early 14th century (i.e. before the Shogunate pulled itself together; hence the North and South Courts PoD), it's just that they were stopped on several occasions (by General Yi Seonggye/King Taejo in Korea and Emperor Hongwu in China) and this, possibly combined with the reunification of Japan, brought a temporary pause. So we need to keep them stronger for longer.

 

[Disenfrancised]

No, they were pretty serious in the early 14th century (i.e. before the Shogunate pulled itself together; hence the North and South Courts PoD), it's just that they were stopped on several occasions (by General Yi Seonggye/King Taejo in Korea and Emperor Hongwu in China) and this, possibly combined with the reunification of Japan, brought a temporary pause. So we need to keep them stronger for longer.

Yes the PoD is Ashikaga Takauji's boat is sunk in a storm when he fled to Kyūshū, thus Go-Daigo remains in power and instead of the northern and southern courts period you have a rather weak central government and a great increase in Wokou numbers from all those who would have allied with Takauji, and the fact at most of Japan was outside the emperors court's control. However the Kemmu restoration continues and lays the groundwork for Go-Daigo's great-grandson to bring the military classes to heel. He also establishes a system of exiling rebelling lords (whilst keeping their children hostage) and men from japan for long periods until they return with sufficent tribute. This establishes the Greater Wokou period, especially when the Ming banned trade with japan, forcing vast amount of smuggled goods into the Wokou holds.
As the situation progressed the Japanese emperor built up his fleet to control the Wokou, though often as not the imperial navy attacked chinese ships as well. Eventually in the 1420s the Japanese and Ming reached an agreement to curtail the raiders and most of the Wokou were forced to submit or work further afield.
The Mings weakness at this time (hyperinflation and lack of silver, a continution of Hongwu's policy on movement and no gigantist naval projects) allowed the Japanese primacy in sea trade, and as disgraced Wokou voyaged further out into polynesia (sweet potatos and pearls proving enticing discoveries, though not profitable trade/raiding goods), eventually a slightly insane Wokou followed the Equatorial countercurrent (during an El Nino year) and Discovered the New World near OTL-Esmeraldas in 1450, and headed back along the southern route through Polynesia, though it is another twenty years before an imperial sanctioned expedition follows up on his story...

 

[das]

So Peru was conquered by the Wokou?

 

[Disenfrancised]

So Peru was conquered by the Wokou?

Discovered by the Wokou, and eventually and messily 'taken over' by a group with at least the nominal authority of the Japanese throne (due to the distance they had to cover they focused their efforts on the 'Silver kingdoms' which gave huge profits when traded with the hungry chinese merchents. Their colonisation was very much of the 'Spanish school' rather than the English French or Portuguese settler colonies).

Thus when the europeans arrived in the new world they found native states already imploding from disease, and in the Far East a resurgent mercentile culture fueled by Incan silver...though things eventually get much much worse for the chinese and japanese this TL doesn't have total european dominance.

And with the collapse of the Japanese empire in the early 19th cen and the rise of the Hong* Chinese Dynasty Gin-teikoku (or Gintei as the stupid europeans insist on calling it) is now ruled by a Bakufu, irony eh?

*I think thats the word I'm looking for.

 

[das]

Yes, makes sense to me. Commendable use of peculiarities of East Asian commerce, too.

The Ming presumably became economically dependent on Japan eventually, correct?

 

[Symphony D.]

I want to see somebody build a plausible (???) or at least detailed alternative (future?) history out of the premise of what's clearly the best game ever made. You could, I suppose, change it to be some other time, and some other place, if you're willing to introduce some steam or dieselpunk into the mix. I liked the idea of Queen Elizabeth II marching through Nazi Germany in powered armor somebody mentioned, honestly.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Also, most of them aren't all that obscure. Sometimes I just obfuscate them a lot, and then you couldn't really guess it. Then again, I suppose that Eastern European history can get a bit obscure if you don't even bother reading up on the most significant events.

So...what are the significant events then?

Yes, makes sense to me. Commendable use of peculiarities of East Asian commerce, too.

The Ming presumably became economically dependent on Japan eventually, correct?

Indeed, well the coastal provinces at least. Later on when the Mongols and early Manchu began pouring in through the underdefended north, and European piracy on the Pacific caused market chaos (the Japanese, thanks to their priveliged position in the economic structure did okay) the Ming fell apart in the 'Hundred Years of Sorrow', and the Japanese Emperor of the time began to get ideas about how much better China would be run under Japanese auspices...

I liked the idea of Queen Elizabeth II marching through Nazi Germany in powered armor somebody mentioned, honestly.

"I know I have the body of a weak and feeble woman, but I have the giant armourplated chainsaw of a king!"

 

[Cannae]

What would it be like if today's contints location was placed roughly like this.