Lord Tirian
Erratic Poster
The guide is awesome. There are some bits I have mixed feelings about, but most things just sound so great that I want to play that now! 
Cheers, LT.
Cheers, LT.
Announcing Dom Pedro II's Civilization 4: Test of Time
- Thread starter Dom Pedro II
- Start date
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
I'm guessing about a week. I'm just trying to iron out some details right now.
Well, by all means, if you have things that you have mixed feelings about, just say it. One of the reasons why I put out this guide before the release is so people can bring up any concerns they might have.The guide is awesome. There are some bits I have mixed feelings about, but most things just sound so great that I want to play that now!
Cheers, LT.
Lord Tirian
Erratic Poster
I'm not sure how the food caravans will work out (might end up a bit micro-managey), but might end up alright in play.
Unit equipment is similar - gives extra specialisation, but we already manage promos and on big maps you can have dozens of units, going through some or all of them sounds like a big time-sink, especially if you have enough money to equip all of them. If the equipment editor, however, can edit several units of the same type at once, it wouldn't be a concern.
Also, not sure about the settler change, do they still consume food to be built? And how often can you train units? Somehow, the potential of getting as much XP as you want through training alone sounds worrisome to me - and does it scale with game speed? Otherwise Marathon would allow you waaaay more XP.
On the other hand, I love all diplomacy additions! Adjusted movement is great and much needed, reminds me of Seven05's World Piece mod (which I loved) - is it planned to expand this to air range as well? Can't wait too see how Unification will play out! Beachheads and tile control is also super-interesting!
Cheers, LT.
I think the unit ideas are great.
GeoModder
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2005
- Messages
- 7,512
Just an idea for extra infantry equipment: the flamethrower.
Could add an increased ability against other infantry units, like the pinch promotion does.
There are already a few flamethrower graphics in the database.
And perhaps the bayonet could be added to the equipment too?
Could add an increased ability against other infantry units, like the pinch promotion does.
There are already a few flamethrower graphics in the database.
And perhaps the bayonet could be added to the equipment too?
mechaerik
Tuturuu!
A week! 
I dont think i can wait that long!
But seriously this looks incredible.
I dont think i can wait that long!But seriously this looks incredible.
Afforess
The White Wizard
Would you care to further explain this? I've been playing with the Multiple production modcomp for weeks now and not seen anything strange.
The one-week estimate is an amazing surprise, even if it is "only as a beta." You asked for suggestions, and here is my personal wish-list:
1) Artifacts - Fall from Heaven II style
- The FfH version of equipment includes relics that can appear on the map, be picked up by units, dropped, and settled in cities. While on units or cities, the relics give specific bonuses. I think that this could be a really cool feature in normal Civ. Imagine invading Ethiopia to find out if they really have the Ark of the Covenant, or sending units on Indiana Jones type adventures. Most useful could be an artifact for each religion that, if retrieved and placed in a city with that religion, creates an additional shrine or global bonus.
2) Weapons of Mass Destruction - your own equipment feature
- Once upon a time, there was a game called Alpha Centauri, and it allowed us to equip troops with biological and chemical weapons. Using these weapons was very effective, but carried a diplomacy hit akin to using nukes. I would love to see your equipment options bring this back. With this feature, you could give your Infantry chemical weapons to replicate WWI. You could take an ICBM and choose whether to arm it with a nuclear or biological warhead. If having this equipment attached triggered a tag, the current UN measure to outlaw nuclear arms could be adapted to cover the tag associated with all WMD-equipped units.
3) Climate Counter - Fall from Heaven II
- The FfH Armageddon Counter, also adapted into the Planetfall Flowering Counter, could function as a way to control and monitor global warming / climate change. The higher the number of factories and forges, the lower the number of unimproved tiles, the higher the count of railroad improvements, etc could all raise or lower the global count. It could also be effected by how many civs are running the Environmentalism civic, how many nuclear detonations / meltdowns have occurred, or how many have discovered certain techs. At the lower levels, effects could be mild: lower spread of jungle, gradual disappearance of polar ice, etc. At moderate levels, terrain could begin to change: deserts increase, grasslands turn into plains, ice turns into tundra, etc. At high levels, severe global issues arise: coastlines shrink, resources begin to disappear, population may even be cut from cities (small cities might be destroyed as a result).
4) Espionage Linked Diplomacy
- What if espionage points had an impact on diplomacy? What if other leaders' attitudes toward you were positively impacted by how well connected you were within their nation? What if buying someone's vote required spending points? Diplomatic Victory suddenly requires not only physical clout, size, and few powerful allies, but also a certain level of undercover activity. Players also suddenly have more reasons to engage in espionage activities and accumulate points.
5) Era-Specific Graphics for Cities, Units, and Flags
- Somewhat accomplished already for units. If this were spread to all three graphical elements, eras would become far more distinct, and using the Final Frontier flag for the Future Era would become viable.
6) Variable Exploration Abilities
- It sounds like this may already be part of your mod, but I would like to see some units restricted from moving outside of certain areas: cultural borders, explored tiles, etc. I would also like to see the ability to move past these dependent for some units on tech. A Galley could start off limited to the coast, but upon discovering a navigation tech, gain the ability to cross the ocean freely. Alternatively, I believe that you had considered returning the % chance of sinking (effected by techs) in your earlier mod. I see no mention of it here, but it would be nice to see something to place temporary limits on expansion.
7) Era-Based Leader Changes
- I know that I mentioned this in my earlier post and you thought that something like this might find its way into your mod eventually, but I figured that it belonged in my official list. I would like to have a game option where the leaders of civs change over the course of the epic game. For example, you start out playing in the Ancient Era as Pericles, and your neighbors the Celts start out as Brennus. When the Classical Age comes around, your civ switches over to Alexander, and when the Celts reach that milestone, they change over to Boudica. Each leader brings specific strengths and weaknesses, as well as a propensity toward war or peace or culture or research. Ideally, when choosing a civ with this option activated, the player would need to consider overall strategy: do they want to be a warmonger early or late, when do they want to switch into builder mode? The difficulty would be in making sure that all leaders for a civ will compliment each other overall and enable their nation to reach a victory condition, but much of that would be more a matter of tweaking the XML personalities after the feature was encoded.
8) Tagged Colonies, Barbarians, and Puppet States
- There are modcomps now that enable civs to be tagged in ways that control their entrance into the game. If a civ is tagged as a colony, it cannot be chosen at the start of the game. If it is tagged as a Barbarian state, then it can only come into being when a barbarian city grows to a certain size and becomes its capital. The same could be applied to your Puppet State feature. If all of these were combined, you could have Mongols that enter the game as settled barbarians, Americans that only arise as a colony mid-game, and I'm not sure of an example of a pre-existing civ that could be termed a "puppet state," but we could add the Congo under Leopold or something. Ideally, there would also be a popup of some sort a-la Ryse and Fall of Civilization that enables a human to assume control of a new nation, especially a colony founded by him or herself. (You found America as the British, then switch over). More of a reach in this whole topic, it might be cool if there was a way to use the Liberty Bell mechanic from Colonization as an exclusive commerce for vassals / colonies gaining independence.
9) Additional Leader Disponsition Modifiers - Fall from Heaven II modmod Orbis - Nuova Alba
- Leaders get not new info for Hated Civic, Hated Wonder, Hated Religion. I believe that normal FfH has Favorite Tech and favorite Wonder, possibly even the ability to pre-set how specific leaders will like or dislike each other (i.e. - Stalin and Churchill could be set as likely enemies, while Mao and Stalin could be set as likely allies). The alignment system in Fall from Heaven might also be adaptable into a loose ethnographic system: instead of Good, Neutral, and Evil, you could code alignments as European, Middle Eastern, African, Asian, American, etc. That way, when civs meet each other, those who are more alike in heritage and culture will tend to band together and shun those who appear different from themselves. Sad as it is, this is a definite part of human history.
10) Ethnic Cleansing - Darkciv
- I've heard that the coding is kind of scattered, but the Darkciv mod managed to include the ability to eradicate another civ's culture from within a city at the touch of a button. It also carried a diplomatic penalty due to the genocidal aspect. Like the WMD suggestions, this brings a level of reality to the game and opens up the possibility of having humans and AIs who are less than upstanding world leaders.
Well, that's all I can think of. I realize that it's a pretty heavy list, and that some things on it might be completely unviable. Parts of it, however, are built on pre-existing mods, and if nothing else, perhaps I can spark your imagination toward using them in some way, shape, or form. Even if none of this is ever added to your work, I am certain that I will play your mod and enjoy it as a truly impressive addition to the game. Thank you.
1) Artifacts - Fall from Heaven II style
- The FfH version of equipment includes relics that can appear on the map, be picked up by units, dropped, and settled in cities. While on units or cities, the relics give specific bonuses. I think that this could be a really cool feature in normal Civ. Imagine invading Ethiopia to find out if they really have the Ark of the Covenant, or sending units on Indiana Jones type adventures. Most useful could be an artifact for each religion that, if retrieved and placed in a city with that religion, creates an additional shrine or global bonus.
2) Weapons of Mass Destruction - your own equipment feature
- Once upon a time, there was a game called Alpha Centauri, and it allowed us to equip troops with biological and chemical weapons. Using these weapons was very effective, but carried a diplomacy hit akin to using nukes. I would love to see your equipment options bring this back. With this feature, you could give your Infantry chemical weapons to replicate WWI. You could take an ICBM and choose whether to arm it with a nuclear or biological warhead. If having this equipment attached triggered a tag, the current UN measure to outlaw nuclear arms could be adapted to cover the tag associated with all WMD-equipped units.
3) Climate Counter - Fall from Heaven II
- The FfH Armageddon Counter, also adapted into the Planetfall Flowering Counter, could function as a way to control and monitor global warming / climate change. The higher the number of factories and forges, the lower the number of unimproved tiles, the higher the count of railroad improvements, etc could all raise or lower the global count. It could also be effected by how many civs are running the Environmentalism civic, how many nuclear detonations / meltdowns have occurred, or how many have discovered certain techs. At the lower levels, effects could be mild: lower spread of jungle, gradual disappearance of polar ice, etc. At moderate levels, terrain could begin to change: deserts increase, grasslands turn into plains, ice turns into tundra, etc. At high levels, severe global issues arise: coastlines shrink, resources begin to disappear, population may even be cut from cities (small cities might be destroyed as a result).
4) Espionage Linked Diplomacy
- What if espionage points had an impact on diplomacy? What if other leaders' attitudes toward you were positively impacted by how well connected you were within their nation? What if buying someone's vote required spending points? Diplomatic Victory suddenly requires not only physical clout, size, and few powerful allies, but also a certain level of undercover activity. Players also suddenly have more reasons to engage in espionage activities and accumulate points.
5) Era-Specific Graphics for Cities, Units, and Flags
- Somewhat accomplished already for units. If this were spread to all three graphical elements, eras would become far more distinct, and using the Final Frontier flag for the Future Era would become viable.
6) Variable Exploration Abilities
- It sounds like this may already be part of your mod, but I would like to see some units restricted from moving outside of certain areas: cultural borders, explored tiles, etc. I would also like to see the ability to move past these dependent for some units on tech. A Galley could start off limited to the coast, but upon discovering a navigation tech, gain the ability to cross the ocean freely. Alternatively, I believe that you had considered returning the % chance of sinking (effected by techs) in your earlier mod. I see no mention of it here, but it would be nice to see something to place temporary limits on expansion.
7) Era-Based Leader Changes
- I know that I mentioned this in my earlier post and you thought that something like this might find its way into your mod eventually, but I figured that it belonged in my official list. I would like to have a game option where the leaders of civs change over the course of the epic game. For example, you start out playing in the Ancient Era as Pericles, and your neighbors the Celts start out as Brennus. When the Classical Age comes around, your civ switches over to Alexander, and when the Celts reach that milestone, they change over to Boudica. Each leader brings specific strengths and weaknesses, as well as a propensity toward war or peace or culture or research. Ideally, when choosing a civ with this option activated, the player would need to consider overall strategy: do they want to be a warmonger early or late, when do they want to switch into builder mode? The difficulty would be in making sure that all leaders for a civ will compliment each other overall and enable their nation to reach a victory condition, but much of that would be more a matter of tweaking the XML personalities after the feature was encoded.
8) Tagged Colonies, Barbarians, and Puppet States
- There are modcomps now that enable civs to be tagged in ways that control their entrance into the game. If a civ is tagged as a colony, it cannot be chosen at the start of the game. If it is tagged as a Barbarian state, then it can only come into being when a barbarian city grows to a certain size and becomes its capital. The same could be applied to your Puppet State feature. If all of these were combined, you could have Mongols that enter the game as settled barbarians, Americans that only arise as a colony mid-game, and I'm not sure of an example of a pre-existing civ that could be termed a "puppet state," but we could add the Congo under Leopold or something. Ideally, there would also be a popup of some sort a-la Ryse and Fall of Civilization that enables a human to assume control of a new nation, especially a colony founded by him or herself. (You found America as the British, then switch over). More of a reach in this whole topic, it might be cool if there was a way to use the Liberty Bell mechanic from Colonization as an exclusive commerce for vassals / colonies gaining independence.
9) Additional Leader Disponsition Modifiers - Fall from Heaven II modmod Orbis - Nuova Alba
- Leaders get not new info for Hated Civic, Hated Wonder, Hated Religion. I believe that normal FfH has Favorite Tech and favorite Wonder, possibly even the ability to pre-set how specific leaders will like or dislike each other (i.e. - Stalin and Churchill could be set as likely enemies, while Mao and Stalin could be set as likely allies). The alignment system in Fall from Heaven might also be adaptable into a loose ethnographic system: instead of Good, Neutral, and Evil, you could code alignments as European, Middle Eastern, African, Asian, American, etc. That way, when civs meet each other, those who are more alike in heritage and culture will tend to band together and shun those who appear different from themselves. Sad as it is, this is a definite part of human history.
10) Ethnic Cleansing - Darkciv
- I've heard that the coding is kind of scattered, but the Darkciv mod managed to include the ability to eradicate another civ's culture from within a city at the touch of a button. It also carried a diplomatic penalty due to the genocidal aspect. Like the WMD suggestions, this brings a level of reality to the game and opens up the possibility of having humans and AIs who are less than upstanding world leaders.
Well, that's all I can think of. I realize that it's a pretty heavy list, and that some things on it might be completely unviable. Parts of it, however, are built on pre-existing mods, and if nothing else, perhaps I can spark your imagination toward using them in some way, shape, or form. Even if none of this is ever added to your work, I am certain that I will play your mod and enjoy it as a truly impressive addition to the game. Thank you.
That can already partially be done in normal civ.
Just create a great genereal style unit, which gives a special promotion, make it capturable, and place it as a barbarian unit on the map.
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
Well, there's nothing that requires players to set up food caravans, but probably players will develop some strategy that makes food caravans a must-have. But admittedly, my original idea was to have a national food stockpile that cities could take from or give to via the city screen.
Agreed. The Equipment component is the newest part of the mod, so it's also the least developed, but I have a couple of plans to reduce the micro from this feature. One is to have another editor screen for setting equipment defaults so that, for example, if you want all your Tanks to have the heavy duty armor, cannon, etc. across the board, you can set this up in this screen. Every new Tank that roles off the production line then will have this equipment automatically. Since setting equipment on an existing unit costs gold, I am planning on having a production cost modifier for each piece of default equipment. So you can build heavy duty Tanks, but they'll take longer to build.
The other thing for already existing units is to have some kind of "Apply to All" button that, if you click it, will cause this equipment set to be applied to all units of the same type. I didn't design the equipment editor (it was done by the great python modder Zebra 9 special for me
), so I'm not sure if it would be possible to have a more nuanced option of being able to select multiple units from the editor.You can't get as much as you want. It maxes out. At the start, you can't get more than 2. Then it goes up to 10 with Chain of Command and to 18 with Military Science. These numbers are easily changed in the XML, so if these limits prove to be too high, it can always be nerfed
Honestly, I'm not too worried about it being overpowered. It takes 6 turns to get 2 XP, and if the unit moves for any reason, it has to start from scratch. On top of that, there's a +1 gold for each unit that's in advanced training. If you're a warmonger, it'd probably be easier and cheaper to get XP the old-fashioned way.
Also, I've removed the free XP for Vassalage, and Theocracy requires the additional investment of time in building Temples, Monasteries and "Cathedrals" to earn each additional experience point in each city. So the maximum amount of possible "out of the box" XP has actually been nerfed.
Are you going to include Better AI/Unofficial Patch in this? I guess you will, it just wasn't specifically mentioned under the mods you had included.
Otherwise, very impressive mod!! A lot of interesting features, for sure.
Otherwise, very impressive mod!! A lot of interesting features, for sure.
GeoModder
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2005
- Messages
- 7,512
Tell me if I'm wrong, but I thought that human units in Dom Pedro's mod are "constructed" by food. AFAIK, the multiple production modcomp covers hammers only?
Btw, Afforess, are you the creator of the multiple production modcomp? I can't find the thread back which announces it so can't find out who created it. (for credits reasons)
Afforess
The White Wizard
I'm not sure if the Multple Production Mod uses hammers only, or both food and hammers, I'd have to go look at the code again. It's been a while since I merged it.
I'm not the creator, Denev is.
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
Yes, I didn't specify that, but BBAI 0.81 is merged in.Are you going to include Better AI/Unofficial Patch in this? I guess you will, it just wasn't specifically mentioned under the mods you had included.
cephalo
Deity
You've always had alot of good ideas Dom Pedro 2, I'll definately have to check it out when it's done.
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
There's a modcomp in the graphics forum. It's just a retexture. I didn't make it myself, but it looks really nice.
Opera
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2008
- Messages
- 4,643
Wow, very nice. You ditched the tribes from Conqueror's Delight, though? I liked the idea.
My favorite thing is a really tiny one in all your mod: the Terrain-Based First Techs. A very good idea; would it be too much to ask a technical description of how you did this? Python, DLL? Also, is the tech really freely given or is it like 50%
needed for it given for free and you still need to research it?
Also, thanks Vrenir for bringing my mod into the discussion (Nuova Alba) but the ones who coded the leaders' relations are the members of the History of the Three Kingdoms mod
My favorite thing is a really tiny one in all your mod: the Terrain-Based First Techs. A very good idea; would it be too much to ask a technical description of how you did this? Python, DLL? Also, is the tech really freely given or is it like 50%
needed for it given for free and you still need to research it?Also, thanks Vrenir for bringing my mod into the discussion (Nuova Alba) but the ones who coded the leaders' relations are the members of the History of the Three Kingdoms mod
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
Ditched is a harsh word... I've merely set it as a low priority for merging. But it will be included in some later version. Whatever is in the guide is just what has already been completed.
It's done in the SDK with XML tags for easy changing. Basically, this is a substitute for civ-based techs. Each civ gets one tech. Their other techs are based on the starting location. So its really an existing idea, free techs at the start of the game, done in a different way.My favorite thing is a really tiny one in all your mod: the Terrain-Based First Techs. A very good idea; would it be too much to ask a technical description of how you did this? Python, DLL? Also, is the tech really freely given or is it like 50%
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