Another hypothetical about Communism... and there is a poll!

[Terxpahseyton]

In our hypothetical, I am the grand master of space, time and political systems. This gives me the ability to - by a snap of my fingers - initiate a peaceful revolution transforming your nation into a socialist/communist system. And by another snap of my fingers, I can ensure that it won't turn into a dictatorship of the bureaucracy or whatever, but will remain democratic.
Now I ask you: Shall I snap my fingers?
What would be your answer?

Keep in mind:
- Peaceful revolution
- Democracy guaranteed to survive (though not certain in what exact form - but a form that really is democratic, i.e. no Russian democracy)
- The exact implementation of the red ideals is - as in the real world - pretty much up to chance

 

[Tahuti]

Anarchist communism basically boils down to perfect democracy, and I'm not sure whether I want to see that. In fact, I'm pretty certain it would be a living hell for me to live in.

 

[Eukaryote]

I voted no because the OP said the implementation of the communist ideals would be "left up to chance."

If he had said "guaranteed poverty-free utopia" I would have said yes.

 

[classical_hero]

How are you gong to get those who don't want to be in this sort of system?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

By promising free beer and bacon.

 

[Joecoolyo]

Nah, I like money.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Man, you are all so conservative
I would say yes just out of curiosity and because the world could use the learning experience this provided.

 

[timtofly]

Nah, I like money.

Yep, selling that beer and bacon would be too much capitalistic work.

 

[aelf]

Socialistic gangs vs. freedom and french fries? Hmm...

 

[Terxpahseyton]

What do you mean by socialistic gangs? And please specify "freedom", it otherwise is so awfully misleading.

 

[aelf]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=449580

 

[Crezth]

How are you gong to get those who don't want to be in this sort of system?

Obviously, we must force them to submit to corporate overlords instead, as that is the only moral system of freedom.

 

[amadeus]

"Democratic" is not a synonym for "better."

 

[Tahuti]

Man, you are all so conservative
I would say yes just out of curiosity and because the world could use the learning experience this provided.

Actually, libertarian Communism, while not having the same problems of the Soviet or Chinese systems, still has never produced what I find a credible answer on how to deal with group think, social peer pressure or anything else. In fact, doesn't libertarian Communism institutionalize populist comformity by giving the majority the power of economic pressure that can potentionally be used against social "aberrations"?

I think it's pretty dangerous to try out such potential for abuse just for the sake of curiosity.

"Democratic" is not a synonym for "better."

Quote of the thread.

 

[Leoreth]

I think it'll still be bad to be surrounded by capitalist nations, economically speaking. So no.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

"Democratic" is not a synonym for "better."

It never was.

Actually, libertarian Communism, while not having the same problems of the Soviet or Chinese systems, still has never produced what I find a credible answer on how to deal with group think, social peer pressure or anything else. In fact, doesn't libertarian Communism institutionalize populist comformity by giving the majority the power of economic pressure that can potentionally be used against social "aberrations"?

I don't know as it never has been tried to my knowledge.

I think it's pretty dangerous to try out such potential for abuse just for the sake of curiosity.

There is always great potential for abuse. And there is always a lot of abuse. And there are always a lot of people who get fracked by the system. This is human civilization. Not an argument against experiments in general.

I think it'll still be bad to be surrounded by capitalist nations, economically speaking. So no.

Dirty materialist.

But as a side note: I trust that when Communism is tried in a modern developed nation, it would be flavored with a healthy dose of a free market and relatively free entrepreneurship. Central planning is IMO beyond a doubt bull crap unless for establishing the roots of an economy or for very special industries. No matter what ideologies you hold.

 

[Leoreth]

Dirty materialist.

I genuinely think that's it's hard for a communist economy to survive side-by-side to a capitalist one. And it's definitely not good for the whole society if it loses its capital and educated people to those who're able to lure them with wealth.

Now if your fingersnap would convert the whole world ...

 

[Cutlass]

No. Communists have yet to articulate what a communist society would be in any way that I would find even marginally acceptable and plausible, much less preferable. In the absence of any concept of what the communist society would be, I'm left thinking that they are throwing the baby out with the bathwater, with not only no replacement bathwater, but no replacement baby either.

 

[pi-r8]

Yeah I just have no idea what Communism would actually be like. The only real picture I have for it is Star Trek. If you can make society like Star Trek, then, sure! But somehow I don't think you can... For now, mixed market economies with some socialism and some private capital seem to work the best.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

@Cutlass
I don't dig this Communist utopia. Nor do I dig Marx's fantasy that the proletariat is destined to "free" itself. I guess all in all I share the common impression that Communism is full of idealogical bullocks.
However, just as you won't find Communist utopia plausible, I don't find the free market with some modifications which won't actually touch its current and past core to be the end of wisdom as plausible. I mean as I see it the question isn't it: Are there better systems than that? The question is: How do we manage to fundamentally improve this system without messing up, caused by that either its complexity simply overstrains us or by blatant power abuse.

Because not the holy awesomeness of the free market is what it makes it so successful if you ask me, it is that
a) An economy is so freaking complex that it is freaking easy to mess it up.
and
b) Humans are freaking corruptible and the ambitions of Communism create great temptations to grab undue power for undue agendas.

But that of course does not mean that we can't move to something better. It only means it is hard to figure it out / reach it. While just going with the traditional free market is easy and workable. But I am convinced that it doesn't actually constitute human potential in creating a good society. To actually aim for that, we need:

a)A profound willingness and support (which doesn't really exist for it doesn't offer immediate benefits but requires dedication to humanist ideals)
and
b)Experience which moves beyond the authoritarian crap which started with the Soviet Union.

I call it Communism because it is the most understandable term I know of. But I guess it is not really what I mean. Only sort of.