Antifa rocks!

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Ask the DHS, they're the ones classifying them as domestic terror.
Do you very generally outsource your critical thinking to government agencies, or did you feel this one in particular was above your pay-grade?

@Traitorfish , i doubt there is much "tradition of fighting fascists" among 16 year old rich kids. And obviously if one kills it sort of should follow they are to be thrown to jail, regardless of what garbage they parrot.
I don't think that's a useful characterisation of militant anti-fascists.

counterpoint:

I agree with pretty much all of this. I should clarify, my criticism of "Antifa" isn't what they actually do, because I'm pretty generally a fellow-traveller. It's the affectation that I'm sceptical of. As I said before, American (and British) Antifa generally follow the standard template of anti-fascist protest, they're just more boisterous. The sort of street-fighting you see in Greece or Italy, or that you saw in Britain and German in the 1970s, isn't really a factor, so mimicking the costume and iconography of those contexts just feels like, well, as Lex said, like LARPing.

Besides, it's not even a good affectation. Whatever happened to anti-fascist skins? Now there was a look.
 
why isn't there a tshirt with a gif of dick spencer getting a punch to the noggin' yet?
 
Did I miss something ?
Are shirts with GIFs A Thing ?
 
oh also just throwing this out there
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We got cut off in the other thread so I'll respond here... and thx for starting the thread, I think ;)

If "attacking people to shut them up is fascistic" by nature, and indicative of that specific socio-political ideology, why has that tactic been used, and VERY, VERY COMMONLY for millennia before the advent of Fascism as an articulated, coherent ideology - in fact going back to AT LEAST the beginning of recorded human history? If your statement was correct, that behaviour should only have started in human history around 1912, when Mussolini started his newspaper in Italy expressing the first Fascistic ideologies and rhetoric, and first coining the term, "Fascisto," and "Fascisma," in fact.

Fascism has come to include certain behaviors associated with fascists, like attacking protesters. Kinda like how thugs came about from the Thuggees. If the KKK attacks civil rights protesters, calling them fascists refers to their behavior, not their attachment to Mussolini's economics. Sure, every era employs words to describe what can be called 'thuggish' or fascist behavior - Mussolini didn't invent the violent suppression of speech.

illusion: shattered

wow: see, this is what i mean, fascists don't beat anyone up, and antifa are the real fascists
your hostility to antifa is clearly based on sympathy with fascists

I dont accept your analogy, Orwell was fighting in a civil war, not attacking protesters. Antifa showed up to attack people protesting the removal of a RE Lee statue. If fascists show up at antifa rallies to attack them, I'll still be on the side of free speech. My position doesn't change based on the messenger, yours does. Now if fascists oppose free speech, and you and antifa oppose free speech, dont you have something in common? Opponents of free speech unite!

You apparently identify with them far enough to see yourself as fellow-victims of the Red Menace.

Do you believe lawyers identify with the murderers they're defending? I dont care about antifa's ideology, I care about their tactics. They are not attacking fascists, they're attacking free speech and the left is largely AWOL or cheering them on. If I identify with any group, its the libertarians and apparently they're on antifa's enemies list too. So the anti-fascists will protect us from the fascists by attacking the free speech crowd.
 
We got cut off in the other thread so I'll respond here... and thx for starting the thread, I think ;)



Fascism has come to include certain behaviors associated with fascists, like attacking protesters. Kinda like how thugs came about from the Thuggees. If the KKK attacks civil rights protesters, calling them fascists refers to their behavior, not their attachment to Mussolini's economics. Sure, every era employs words to describe what can be called 'thuggish' or fascist behavior - Mussolini didn't invent the violent suppression of speech.

Yw. I take it you are now admitting you are dramatically expanding the definition of fascists so it fits the hyperbolic narrative that anti fascists are actually fascists? You are equating fascists with thugs?
 
Now if fascists oppose free speech, and you and antifa oppose free speech, dont you have something in common? Opponents of free speech unite!

Do you know what a pre-emptive strike is?
 
most people, especially outside of Europe, aren't even aware of the existence of the BB and just think of them as Antifa

people are just ignorant. it's the same with many "subcultures", really. Skinheads nowadays are almost always associated with white supremacy, when Anarcho skins, Apolitical skins and leftist-extremist skins probably make up half of all skinheads. It's a shame.



I didn't know there was black Baklava. is it made with black sesame instead of nuts? :confused:


It all starts in the 60ies in Europe.
On the one hand the original Autonomes: non-tribal & non-political....intellectual, higher educated, diverse social background, anti-established institutions,etc.... searching, defining their own way to live.... artists, authors, (proto)hippies.... with a touch of world-improvers, with a touch of wanting to connect to the workers class (as enlighting elite)
On the other hand the original skinheads: tribal & non-political.... anti-intellectual, hardly educated, workers class background, anti upstairs and bourgeois.... manifesting the proud identity of the "have nots", the "have no futures", "want no promisses".... F*** you all !

Both meet up to find group strenght, both go to the streets to manifest themselves, both are not afraid to have conflicts with the strong arm of the authorities.

Black dress starts AFAIK in the anti-nuclear Brokdorf, Germany protests in the mid 70ies. Around 1980 the squatting movements in the Netherlands, Germany have their leftish-anarchic BB factions. And black dress becomes very fast in NL in the early 80ies, on the punk/heavy metal wave, just the cultural costume for young people, going to Amsterdam for their education, seeking a place to live and people to socialise with....
Already indicating that the articles and pictures in the (more rightwing) newspapers of their parents, branding the squatting movement, the antifa, anti-nuclear, anti-xxxx, as nihilist blackdressed troublemakers, had a clear influence on young people in the country's far away spectator seats. "My father is rightwing or bourgeois, his newspaper says rioting in black dress is bad, I am going to riot in black dress".
Sub cultures have very fast generational changes every few years from again and again new waves of people joining and leaving. A real challenge there to keep up some consistency in values and style of engaging. => causing a high diversity in what Autonome, what BB, what black dress, became.
The same happens now with all kinds of antifa or yellow jackets or everything. The newsmedia make up their own reality of what happens, what the supposed motives and objectives are, to satisfy their own agenda's, from politics to juicy fear inducing, and far away people believe it (how about a controlled free will there ?).

How funny that black dress is if you know that the original Autonome movement in Amsterdam in 1965, the Provo's, used white as color for its actions to express innocence and un-tainted from commercial Big Corporate and the connection to the establishment.
White bicycles were given free for the public to use in Amsterdam (and the authorities, their strong arm the police, arrested the Provo's doing that), white banners without text were used for protests (and the protesters arrested by the police), white chickens were given freely to passing Amsterdammers (and the Provo's doing that were arrested)... etc, etc
And yes... it rained batton strokes from the police on the Provo's, but they stayed non-violent.
The authorities and police were, became clueless how to react. During a simple strikeand street protests of construction workers in 1966 against 2% deduction of holiday money, the police used gunfire and killed two construction workers.

It was all hugely succesful in making the authorities ludricous and discrediting the authoritarian behaviour in the eyes of broad masses of our population.

Those Provo thoughts and actions of the mid 60ies were the very base for much of the strenght of all our grassroot movements in NL of the 70ies.
 
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Do you believe lawyers identify with the murderers they're defending? I dont care about antifa's ideology, I care about their tactics. They are not attacking fascists, they're attacking free speech and the left is largely AWOL or cheering them on. If I identify with any group, its the libertarians and apparently they're on antifa's enemies list too. So the anti-fascists will protect us from the fascists by attacking the free speech crowd.
I'm not sure how you can maintain both these assertions simultaneously. Either you care about what Antifa think, or you don't.

To zoom on this libertarians point, which libertarians, precisely, are Antifa supposedly targeting? Objectivist book clubs? Cannabis legalization activists Paul dynasty fundraisers? Or the sort who turn up to rallies organised by white supremacists, populated by white supremacists, in defence of white supremacist iconography?

After all, from one angle, the statue was installed and maintained are the public expense, on land bought and maintained at the public expense; from the other, the decision to remove the statue was taken by the body who were its legal and by all accounts rightful owners. From perspectives, the authentically libertarian position seems to be to support the removal of the statue, as a matter of principle. Any "libertarian" turning out in defence of the statue is taking a stand to override the rights of property owners in order to maintain the grasp of the state over public space- a distinctly un-libertarian position. Does it not therefore seem reasonable that the unbiased observer might become sceptical of the self-declared "libertarianism" of participants in the really?

Fascism has come to include certain behaviors associated with fascists, like attacking protesters.
"Fascist", broadly used, has come to include people who are pedantic about the use of "less" versus "fewer". Appealing to popular usage is a piss-poor basis for declaring that "anti-fascists are the real fascists".
 
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Do you believe lawyers identify with the murderers they're defending? I dont care about antifa's ideology, I care about their tactics. They are not attacking fascists, they're attacking free speech and the left is largely AWOL or cheering them on. If I identify with any group, its the libertarians and apparently they're on antifa's enemies list too. So the anti-fascists will protect us from the fascists by attacking the free speech crowd.

Forgive me if I don't understand the logic, rational, or empirical evidence for many people today proclaiming actions or beliefs done or promoted in unanimous, undivided lockstep by this immense bloc of singular unified ideology they just call "the left" as simplified term, as though speaking of a hive. I don't know what delusions and misconceptions you and others who speak this way are under, but believe me when I say I have not this legion of unified thought that defies the very human nature contrariness by it's proposed existence. But that's just one of a very many ways of speaking and making references that have actually become viewed as acceptable, even respectable to some, in the modern parlance that frankly just reek of utter, base stupidity and that the world would be best served by ridding it's discourse of.
 
"Fascist", broadly used, has come to include people who are pedantic about the use of "less" versus "fewer". Appealing to popular usage is a piss-poor basis for declaring that "anti-fascists are the real fascists".
English teachers are the real fascists
 
English teachers are the real fascists

In that case my first antifascistic act was getting two teachers expelled from school because of abusive authoritarian behaviour :D
 
Ask the DHS, they're the ones classifying them as domestic terror.

The DHS? You mean the American Gestapo or KGB? Good source of such classifications. Top notch reference. :S
 
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