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I think the southern strategy was born with Goldwater in '64 and solidified with Nixon's 2 elections, but Nixon began the modern drug war in his first term as payback to hippies and black people. The hippies mostly disappeared leaving black people as the target.

http://www.aei.org/publication/the-...-that-targeted-blacks-and-anti-war-activists/

http://www.drugpolicy.org/issues/brief-history-drug-war

Reagan's war took off in the mid 80s as the 'crack epidemic' hit. The death of basketball star Len Bias in '86 drafted by the Boston Celtics motivated Speaker Tip O'Neill to begin almost a decade of expanding laws and prison terms which are largely responsible for the mass incarceration we've seen since the turn of the century. The Democrats had control of the House with significant majorities under both Nixon and Reagan up until the '94 crime bill pushed by Biden and Clinton. The Republicans overwhelmingly opposed that bill, but they had other reasons for that, ie guns. Both parties have blame for what happened, but the Democrats authored most of the drug war.

Wait I thought when presidents won elections those have consequences and they lead and usually get a few things they want. Again you are putting blame solely into one side because it feeds your urge to have this hyperbolic irony. By all means go ahead and enjoy it, no one who actually knows about this stuff agrees with you on it. I get it plays real well in certain circles though.
 
Wait I thought when presidents won elections those have consequences and they lead and usually get a few things they want. Again you are putting blame solely into one side because it feeds your urge to have this hyperbolic irony. By all means go ahead and enjoy it, no one who actually knows about this stuff agrees with you on it. I get it plays real well in certain circles though.

"Both parties have blame for what happened, but the Democrats authored most of the drug war."

You quoted me and then misrepresented what I said. The Democrats wrote the laws Nixon and Reagan (and Clinton thru '94) enforced. So when Democrats lecture the rest of us about white supremacy they're exposing themselves to a reality check. We're getting OT a bit, if this was about BLM then the drug war would be relevant since thats the primary reason for the conflict between police and black communities.

Not enough wit and sarcasm for one. If your gonna post this kinda stuff you might as well go all the way.
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Did Bill Clinton Cheat On Monica Lewinsky With KILLARY? Yes, And Our GOVERNMENT Doesn’t Want You To Know

Why do you keep bringing up Hillary? You do that more than anyone else on the forum.
 
Wait I thought when presidents won elections those have consequences and they lead and usually get a few things they want. Again you are putting blame solely into one side because it feeds your urge to have this hyperbolic irony. By all means go ahead and enjoy it, no one who actually knows about this stuff agrees with you on it. I get it plays real well in certain circles though.

Berzerker is correct insofar as there is a lot of blame to lay at the Democrats' feet for the drug war, but he's unable to perceive that the Democrats are now opposed to the drug war while the Republicans mostly want to keep weed a schedule I drug let alone make further reforms.

the drug war would be relevant since thats the primary reason for the conflict between police and black communities.

This is incredibly naive. Let me be the first to inform you that actually, the police and black communities were in "conflict" long before the drug war ever started.
 
Is poisoning the well an example of good faith?
I don't think that pointing out that the fascists killed a whole bunch of trade unionists, in a discussion about fascist trade union policy, qualifies as "poisoning the well".

What would he have done with them if they didn't do as told?
If Lenin had everyone who disagreed with him shot, he would have had his entire cabinet shot by mid-1918, including both Stalin and Trotsky.

I don't think the bolded here is a remotely accurate description of the trade unions in the Soviet Union as they functioned under and after Stalin. "Essentially ceremonial" and "fig-leaf over the untrammeled power of Party officials" seem to be quite accurate descriptors of how they worked in the 1930s and later.
Well, I disagree. Trade unions in the Soviet Union were subordinate to the state, but so was everything else: the army, the state-owned firms, the universities, the press. It would be ridiculous on the face of it to suggest that, say, the editor of Pravda, say, or the commander of the First Red Banner Army, was merely a ceremonial position, that he and his institution did not represent a location of power. The question of whether the trade unions had any real power would therefore be a question of whether they fulfilled an important role in organising Soviet society, and while readings from Malleus Stalinicarum don't answer that question, but any credible scholarship will agree that the trade unions had an important role setting wages, deciding quotes, allocating workers, determining standards and imposing discipline. That this wasn't done entirely for the benefit of the workers doesn't reduce these institutions to mere puppets of Wicked Uncle Joe.

The activities of Western trade unions, social democratic and conservative, were not wholly for the benefit of the workers, either, giving their generally understood role as the guarantors of "industrial peace". (Even to this day, militant union leaders, like the late great Bob Crow of the British RMT, are regarded by the bourgeois press as economic vandals.) Still less so during war-time, when high degrees of central planning and "governments of national unity" gave Western democracies an appearance not unlike that of the Soviet Union, or Soviet-aligned "popular front" governments, under which the primary task of trade unions was seen as mobilising workers for the war effort, with severe official and unofficial penalties for failing to do so.

Facism is Nazism and the Nazi's were socialism 'cause the called themselves the National Socialists. And Socialism = Communism therefore all Socialists are Nazi's and all Nazis are Commies. There is no difference of any kind whatsoever between them and if you don't agree with this explanation then you are obviously an Inhuman Terrorist Commie-Nazi from Uranus!
I've started to notice a second, sinister dimension to this particular conservative talking point this parodies. The overt usage, the one we're all familiar with, is that if the Nazis are socialists, then socialists are bad because they're like Nazis. That was good enough for the Obama era. But more recently, the concern seems less with identifying contemporary with socialism, as disidentifying fascism with the contemporary right.

The assertions, as those made up-thread, are that fascism pursued an essentially socialist economic program. One need not insist that this makes fascism and socialism interchangeable, and indeed one can generously permit that fascism is merely a kind of socialism, or even that it was simply informed by socialism. What's important is, if this is so, then nobody professing an explicitly capitalistic economic program can be a fascist. How can Trump be a fascist when he's a property mogul? How can Richard Spencer be a fascist if he's anti-welfare? How can that guy who started the Proud Boys be a fascist if he drinks his own piss, which I understand is in some way connected to low taxes? It may not convince leftists, but it doesn't have to: what matters is that moderate conservatives have bought just heavily enough into the conflation of fascism and socialism that they accept without much objection that an anti-socialist must be, by definition, at least non-fascist, and therefore an acceptable ally. Even if you may find an individual alt-righter repugnant, even if you disagree with a specific slogan or talking point, they are not beyond the pale, they are politically acceptable.

Which is kinda bleakly funny, given how this all went for conservatives last time. "Jeff Sessions, Stephen Miller, Rudy Giuliani too/Oh, the Night of the Long Knives is comin' for you." (nswf lyrics warning i guess)
 
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that the trade unions had an important role setting wages, deciding quotes, allocating workers, determining standards and imposing discipline.

Sorry to be pedantic, but I ASSUME (a very dangerous practice in the modern day and age - especially on the Internet) you mean QUOTAS - unless Soviet trade unions had a very little known role, and one unique and idiosyncratic to them, of scripting CPSU party rhetoric for public speeches and literature. :p
 
The activities of Western trade unions, social democratic and conservative, were not wholly for the benefit of the workers, either, giving their generally understood role as the guarantors of "industrial peace". (Even to this day, militant union leaders, like the late great Bob Crow of the British RMT, are regarded by the bourgeois press as economic vandals.) Still less so during war-time, when high degrees of central planning and "governments of national unity" gave Western democracies an appearance not unlike that of the Soviet Union, or Soviet-aligned "popular front" governments, under which the primary task of trade unions was seen as mobilising workers for the war effort, with severe official and unofficial penalties for failing to do so.

This is actually a good argument with respect to the role of trade unions in social democracies after they had been brought into the legal framework and all. I've made the point before that in the US labor law was designed to hinder workers' interests as much as to help them advance those interests. The point is taken that the approach was different than the fascist one.
 
This is actually a good argument with respect to the role of trade unions in social democracies after they had been brought into the legal framework and all. I've made the point before that in the US labor law was designed to hinder workers' interests as much as to help them advance those interests. The point is taken that the approach was different than the fascist one.
I don't think that pointing out that the fascists killed a whole bunch of trade unionists, in a discussion about fascist trade union policy, qualifies as "poisoning the well".


If Lenin had everyone who disagreed with him shot, he would have had his entire cabinet shot by mid-1918, including both Stalin and Trotsky.


Well, I disagree. Trade unions in the Soviet Union were subordinate to the state, but so was everything else: the army, the state-owned firms, the universities, the press. It would be ridiculous on the face of it to suggest that, say, the editor of Pravda, say, or the commander of the First Red Banner Army, was merely a ceremonial position, that he and his institution did not represent a location of power. The question of whether the trade unions had any real power would therefore be a question of whether they fulfilled an important role in organising Soviet society, and while readings from Malleus Stalinicarum don't answer that question, but any credible scholarship will agree that the trade unions had an important role setting wages, deciding quotes, allocating workers, determining standards and imposing discipline. That this wasn't done entirely for the benefit of the workers doesn't reduce these institutions to mere puppets of Wicked Uncle Joe.

The activities of Western trade unions, social democratic and conservative, were not wholly for the benefit of the workers, either, giving their generally understood role as the guarantors of "industrial peace". (Even to this day, militant union leaders, like the late great Bob Crow of the British RMT, are regarded by the bourgeois press as economic vandals.) Still less so during war-time, when high degrees of central planning and "governments of national unity" gave Western democracies an appearance not unlike that of the Soviet Union, or Soviet-aligned "popular front" governments, under which the primary task of trade unions was seen as mobilising workers for the war effort, with severe official and unofficial penalties for failing to do so.


I've started to notice a second, sinister dimension to this particular conservative talking point this parodies. The overt usage, the one we're all familiar with, is that if the Nazis are socialists, then socialists are bad because they're like Nazis. That was good enough for the Obama era. But more recently, the concern seems less with identifying contemporary with socialism, as disidentifying fascism with the contemporary right.

The assertions, as those made up-thread, are that fascism pursued an essentially socialist economic program. One need not insist that this makes fascism and socialism interchangeable, and indeed one can generously permit that fascism is merely a kind of socialism, or even that it was simply informed by socialism. What's important is, if this is so, then nobody professing an explicitly capitalistic economic program can be a fascist. How can Trump be a fascist when he's a property mogul? How can Richard Spencer be a fascist if he's anti-welfare? How can that guy who started the Proud Boys be a fascist if he drinks his own piss, which I understand is in some way connected to low taxes? It may not convince leftists, but it doesn't have to: what matters is that moderate conservatives have bought just heavily enough into the conflation of fascism and socialism that they accept without much objection that an anti-socialist must be, by definition, at least non-fascist, and therefore an acceptable ally. Even if you may find an individual alt-righter repugnant, even if you disagree with a specific slogan or talking point, they are not beyond the pale, they are politically acceptable.

Which is kinda bleakly funny, given how this all went for conservatives last time. "Jeff Sessions, Stephen Miller, Rudy Giuliani too/Oh, the Night of the Long Knives is comin' for you." (nswf lyrics warning i guess)

Things could be worse in some regimes. In Saudi Arabia, labour unions for any trade or type of worker are illegal, and organizing them is considered "conspiracy and criminal assembly for the purpose of sedition and activities to act against the Monarchy" - and thus punishable by public beheading.
 
Things could be worse in some regimes. In Saudi Arabia, labour unions for any trade or type of worker are illegal, and organizing them is considered "conspiracy and criminal assembly for the purpose of sedition and activities to act against the Monarchy" - and thus punishable by public beheading.

In the United States for most of the 19th century, and Great Britain on a similar timeline, the same was true (except punishment by public beheading). Unions and other labor organizations were regarded as illegal conspiracies (or "combinations" in the parlance of the time).
 
Berzerker is correct insofar as there is a lot of blame to lay at the Democrats' feet for the drug war, but he's unable to perceive that the Democrats are now opposed to the drug war while the Republicans mostly want to keep weed a schedule I drug let alone make further reforms.

Haven't you heard? The War on Opioids is coming to a theater near you very soon. We're not talking about "now" and Obama and the Democrats didn't reschedule pot either. The 1st Step Act was just passed by a Republican controlled Congress and signed by Trump - and it was Trump who pushed for this major reform. As for what Democrats want "now", even if that was true - and it isn't - the drug war they created and supported up until 'now' is racist. Do you disagree? Democrats have no business lecturing others about white supremacy, they've been supporting it for years.

This is incredibly naive. Let me be the first to inform you that actually, the police and black communities were in "conflict" long before the drug war ever started.

I didn't say there was no conflict between black communities and the police before the drug war, I said the drug war was the primary reason for conflicts BLM seeks to address. Nixon started his war to create that conflict.
 
the drug war they created

Nixon started his war

This is the reason trying to have a rational discussion gets tossed out the window when Berzerker enters the room. The "they" is Democrats. In the very same post he gives ownership of this 'war' to DEMOCRATS and to NIXON. With that going on, how can a rational discussion be maintained?

Do not make the mistake of thinking that in removing the rest of the statements in this wildly nonsensical post I was somehow saying they made any more sense than what I left as an example, they were just too numerous to be bothered with.
 
Haven't you heard? The War on Opioids is coming to a theater near you very soon. We're not talking about "now" and Obama and the Democrats didn't reschedule pot either. The 1st Step Act was just passed by a Republican controlled Congress and signed by Trump - and it was Trump who pushed for this major reform. As for what Democrats want "now", even if that was true - and it isn't - the drug war they created and supported up until 'now' is racist. Do you disagree? Democrats have no business lecturing others about white supremacy, they've been supporting it for years.



I didn't say there was no conflict between black communities and the police before the drug war, I said the drug war was the primary reason for conflicts BLM seeks to address. Nixon started his war to create that conflict.

These links and rationales are as flimsy, tenuous, contrived, and desperate as saying, say, "a modern politician who drives a Volkswagen MUST be a full-fledged, died in the wool Nazi, because Volkswagen was originally a project started in Nazi Germany."
 
This is the reason trying to have a rational discussion gets tossed out the window when Berzerker enters the room. The "they" is Democrats. In the very same post he gives ownership of this 'war' to DEMOCRATS and to NIXON. With that going on, how can a rational discussion be maintained?

Do not make the mistake of thinking that in removing the rest of the statements in this wildly nonsensical post I was somehow saying they made any more sense than what I left as an example, they were just too numerous to be bothered with.

There ya go, following me around with insults. Yes, 'they' is the Democrats - the people who wrote the drug laws Nixon enforced. Cant both be responsible? I think so... and I said so. Why is that irrational?

These links and rationales are as flimsy, tenuous, contrived, and desperate as saying, say, "a modern politician who drives a Volkswagen MUST be a full-fledged, died in the wool Nazi, because Volkswagen was originally a project started in Nazi Germany."

The drug war is ongoing... There are people all over the country sitting in cages for drugs.
 
There ya go, following me around with insults. Yes, 'they' is the Democrats - the people who wrote the drug laws Nixon enforced. Cant both be responsible? I think so... and I said so. Why is that irrational?



The drug war is ongoing... There are people all over the country sitting in cages for drugs.

He's back in the ring swinging for another round, folks! This match is going to an all-nighter, and the bookies are betting on a TKO ending from exhaustion, at best!
 
There ya go, following me around with insults.

Once again, my posting history indicates that I'm all over the place, not "following you around." Me just happening to be where you post something stupid is at best coincidence, and at worst a commentary on just how much stupid stuff you post. My only "following" was cruising another forum to get opinions on you that weren't colored by "you're that guy that Berzerker is always crying about."
 
He's back in the ring swinging for another round, folks! This match is going to an all-nighter, and the bookies are betting on a TKO ending from exhaustion, at best!

Your corner just threw in the towel

Once again, my posting history indicates that I'm all over the place, not "following you around." Me just happening to be where you post something stupid is at best coincidence, and at worst a commentary on just how much stupid stuff you post. My only "following" was cruising another forum to get opinions on you that weren't colored by "you're that guy that Berzerker is always crying about."

The 'following around' doesn't refer to how you treat other posters, its how you follow me around with insults. You do it to J too... You're the forum bully, anyone disagrees with you enough becomes your target for insults and everyone sees how you behave and learn to walk on eggshells around you. As for crying, my God Tim... My inbox is full of your 'crying'. Get outta my safe space wawawa.
 
Your corner just threw in the towel



The 'following around' doesn't refer to how you treat other posters, its how you follow me around with insults. You do it to J too... You're the forum bully, anyone disagrees with you enough becomes your target for insults and everyone sees how you behave and learn to walk on eggshells around you. As for crying, my God Tim... My inbox is full of your 'crying'. Get outta my safe space wawawa.

Well, then, I see we've stopped debating and are now all venting on Jerry Springfield.
 
The 'following around' doesn't refer to how you treat other posters, its how you follow me around with insults. You do it to J too... You're the forum bully, anyone disagrees with you enough becomes your target for insults and everyone sees how you behave and learn to walk on eggshells around you.


LOL... @Lexicus and I disagreed pretty strongly...yesterday? He did not appear to be "walking on eggshells." Nor did he go away crying with a commitment to just whine endlessly for months...or are you into years now? So tiresome trying to keep track.

As to the similarity between you and J...if you think that begins and ends with crying about how Tim doesn't like you, guess again.
 
Well, then, I see we've stopped debating and are now all venting on Jerry Springfield.

You stopped

LOL... @Lexicus and I disagreed pretty strongly...yesterday? He did not appear to be "walking on eggshells." Nor did he go away crying with a commitment to just whine endlessly for months...or are you into years now? So tiresome trying to keep track.

As to the similarity between you and J...if you think that begins and ends with crying about how Tim doesn't like you, guess again.

Lex is in your echo chamber, he doesn't disagree with you enough (how did you miss that distinction after quoting it?). I've seen how people react when you disagree with them, they end up dropping debates so you dont have a hissy fit. As for years of whining, look at your sigs. Years of whining about how you got banned boohoo.
 
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