Appropriate use of force by police

[MjM]

I don't think it takes a doctor to look at that video and think that kicking her in the face hurt and was totally unnecessary.

'hurt' is a gross understatement. She looks unconscious, thus at the very least, a serious concussion. I would not be surprised if there were further damage.

Unfortunately, the amount of power that comes with being a police officer corrupts nearly all of them. He should be in prison for hurting someone, and extra time for being a police officer.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

She represented no threat to him. He has to leave his ego on the hanger in the changing room. Give her a couple of months (suspended if first offence), fire him and give him a couple of months in the secure wing with the child abusers, grasses and other bent cops.

Every time a cop does this it makes not only all cops less safe but all citizens.

This

Check out the longer clip in the op. He knocks her spark out and doesn't raise a hair. There was no adrenalin fight or flight reaction from the cop. In the best case it was an ego issue (she hit me so I get to hit her back) and in the worst it was the casual violence of the bully. As the representatives of the states monopoly on force cops dont get to do either.

If you cant deal with an unarmed, handcuffed, drunk woman sitting on the ground your have no business being a cop. He could literally have pushed her over using his little finger rather than kicking her in the head.

And this.

I can't believe some of you want to let him off with a warning.

 

[Berzerker]

If he does it ONCE, I don't care because in that particular instance, he was provoked, hence, the usage of the word otherwise. However if, he makes the same mistake twice (not being able to hold back his anger) then, there is a problem.

I understand what "otherwise" means, I was asking why you didn't care about a cop assaulting a cuffed prisoner in this case but would if he did stuff like this before. Either he was justified or he wasn't...

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Unnecessary but standard police behaviour in any country (no only USA it seems there are more cameras in USA though).

What about this one from Spain some years ago?

Link to video.
The guy robbed a bank and took several hostages saying he had a hand grenade (he had nothing after all). No very clever by his part to ask for a bike for escaping instead of a car i would say...

 

[danjuno]

I understand what "otherwise" means, I was asking why you didn't care about a cop assaulting a cuffed prisoner in this case but would if he did stuff like this before. Either he was justified or he wasn't...

He is not justified. BUT, if it is his first time doing something like this, let him off with a warning. If he keeps doing doing it, take action. (i.e. suspension, dismissal)
Also, I did not say I didn't care that the cop was kicking a cuffed prisoner. I didn't care what happened to the prisoner because she had provoked the cop by kicking him. I do not feel any sympathy for someone who kicks a cop and thinks nothing bad will happen as a result.

 

[Traitorfish]

If he does it ONCE, I don't care because in that particular instance, he was provoked, hence, the usage of the word otherwise. However if, he makes the same mistake twice (not being able to hold back his anger) then, there is a problem.

Do you really think that it's wise to permit somebody a state-backed license to use violence when it's apparent that they can be so easily provoked to extremes? You seem to imagine that this was something that just happened by chance, as if the Fates had just rolled an unlucky number, and not something that can be understood as reflecting on his physiological orientation in any way.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

Unfortunately, the amount of power that comes with being a police officer corrupts nearly all of them.

It does in the US maybe, here they're pretty decent.

It was the first time on the job, as far as I have heard. (The first time caught on camera, anyway.) But...

source

He seems to have a history.. Him getting fired wouldn't be unreasonable, but him getting other assignments at work seems preferable. He might be totally unsuitable for the job though.


It's a lot harder to fire people here and it's a good thing most of the time. I can see a situation where people having some issues with persons or institutions provoking and then filming their reactions. It shouldn't be all too easy to destroy families because of a political conviction.

 

[MjM]

He is not justified. BUT, if it is his first time doing something like this, let him off with a warning.

So he can kick someone else in the head with his boots? Possibly brain injuring or killing them? He obviously has issues if he thought he was in danger from a drunk handcuffed woman on the curb and felt he had to respond like that. He should be in prison, his badge taken away, and anger management sessions forced upon him.

If he keeps doing doing it, take action. (i.e. suspension, dismissal)

Ah, so wait until someone gets really really hurt before taking action. Police are held to a higher standard than regular citizenry because of the power they wield. This man is dispicable and does not deserve a 'warning'.

Also, I did not say I didn't care that the cop was kicking a cuffed prisoner. I didn't care what happened to the prisoner because she had provoked the cop by kicking him. I do not feel any sympathy for someone who kicks a cop and thinks nothing bad will happen as a result.

She shouldnt of tried to kick him, but she was drunk and was being arrested. Police are trained to deal with people when they are resisting, and when they arent in danger, they are to mostly just ignore it and take them to jail. Not kick them in the head. If you think she deserved that, then you have some issues yourself it seems.

It does in the US maybe, here they're pretty decent.

I've never been anywhere else, so I cannot comment. The average police officer in Southern California is corrupt as all hell though.

EDIT: MY 7000TH POST!

 

[Traitorfish]

Police are held to a higher standard than regular citizenry because of the power they wield.

It's quite impossible to stress this enough. The police should be, in all circumstances, dealt with more rapidly and more strictly than the general populace, precisely because they are the police. Those who seem to not only reject this, but actually believe that the social position of the police excepts them from usual expectations of behaviour, absolutely baffle me.

 

[LucyDuke]

If he does it ONCE, I don't care because in that particular instance, he was provoked, hence, the usage of the word otherwise. However if, he makes the same mistake twice (not being able to hold back his anger) then, there is a problem.

One free pass, huh? What other crimes should be ignored because they only happened once?

Did you see post 57? This isn't the first time he has shown a lack of self-control. This wasn't an isolated incident (and I strongly suspect they usually aren't) so we don't need to bother with hypothetical better cops.

Also, I did not say I didn't care that the cop was kicking a cuffed prisoner. I didn't care what happened to the prisoner because she had provoked the cop by kicking him. I do not feel any sympathy for someone who kicks a cop and thinks nothing bad will happen as a result.

Would you have sympathy or care if he had murdered her? How much excessive violence are you giving permission for here?

Krawetz claims Levesque made contact with his leg, and because he was concerned about a knee injury, he attempted to block her kick.

"I call it a snap kick," Krawetz told the court Tuesday morning. "I guess a karate instructor might call it a roundhouse kick. I'm not sure."

"I was off balance kicking her," Krawetz explained.

On Monday, a defense expert on police force told the court he believed Krawetz's actions were justified, but admitted under cross-examination that Krawetz could have walked away from the situation.

source

Re: bold: I'm confused about why he would even try to make that argument to anyone who has seen the video, since it's clear as day that whatever threat her kick posed was over by the time he raised his foot, and his kick was right at her head, not at her leg.


From Friday:

On Thursday, the defendant’s fellow police officer at Twin River that evening testified that Officer Krawetz never expressed concern for his own safety, never said he feared serious bodily injury, never yelled out that he was in pain and never sought medical attention.

"Did he in anyway indicate to you, that he felt he was in danger of serious bodily injury?"

Patrolman Russell Enos replied, "No."

As the criminal trial continues at Providence Superior Court, the town of Lincoln is preparing to serve Krawetz with administrative charges.

Ragosta said the administrative charges parallel the criminal allegations against Krawetz.

They include:

*"Use of physical force which is necessary. . ."
*"Failure to remain calm regardless of provocation. . ."
*"Conduct that reflects discredit upon the officer. . ."

If a police officer is charged criminally, then the administrative process may not get under way until the criminal adjudication is complete, and that includes any appeals," continued Ragosta.

If convicted of the town's charges, Krawetz could lose his job.

But due to the Officer Bill of Rights, the final decision could take years, and will be decided by a three member commission that hears local cases against police officers.

source


I've been looking but can't find word either way on whether Ms Levesque was seriously injured, so I assume she wasn't. Which doesn't make anything any less outrageous.

 

[GinandTonic]

Much as I hate to agree with him on anything, I can fully understand the officers confusion as to if that was a snap or a roundhouse.

 

[LucyDuke]

It does in the US maybe, here they're pretty decent.

He seems to have a history.. Him getting fired wouldn't be unreasonable, but him getting other assignments at work seems preferable. He might be totally unsuitable for the job though.


It's a lot harder to fire people here and it's a good thing most of the time. I can see a situation where people having some issues with persons or institutions provoking and then filming their reactions. It shouldn't be all too easy to destroy families because of a political conviction.

The wiki link in my last post - apparently it's hard to fire cops here too. (It's super easy to fire lots and lots of other types of workers.) But I will be seriously surprised if they put him back on the street.

 

[Traitorfish]

The wiki link in my last post - apparently it's hard to fire cops here too. (It's super easy to fire lots and lots of other types of workers.)

It's a funny fact that police unions are very strong indeed, precisely because its necessary to keep them happy so that they continue to keep the other plebs in line. The most notorious example would be the Boston police strike of 1919, which left the local and national bigwigs in what seemed to be a sincere panic about the possibility of general insurrection.

 

[danjuno]

So he can kick someone else in the head with his boots? Possibly brain injuring or killing them? He obviously has issues if he thought he was in danger from a drunk handcuffed woman on the curb and felt he had to respond like that. He should be in prison, his badge taken away, and anger management sessions forced upon him.



Ah, so wait until someone gets really really hurt before taking action. Police are held to a higher standard than regular citizenry because of the power they wield. This man is dispicable and does not deserve a 'warning'.




She shouldnt of tried to kick him, but she was drunk and was being arrested. Police are trained to deal with people when they are resisting, and when they arent in danger, they are to mostly just ignore it and take them to jail. Not kick them in the head.

I didn't realize that he had kicked her hard enough to potentially cause severe damage the first time I watched, so I apologize for not realizing that the first time around.

@LucyDuke I didn't see the article, so again, I apologize.

If you think she deserved that, then you have some issues yourself it seems.

That said, it's a general consensus that she chose unwisely. What I meant to say was she had chosen unwisely, therefore I did not have pity for her.

 

[Traitorfish]

So you're arguing that she could reasonably expect to be kicked in the head after making that choice? That the police officer was not doing something exceptional, but what anyone would have done in reaction to the particular provocation that she made?

 

[say1988]

I didn't realize that he had kicked her hard enough to potentially cause severe damage the first time I watched, so I apologize for not realizing that the first time around.

Any time you kick someone in the head there is risk of severe damage. Even if he didn't hit her hard enough for a concusion or anything, what if she had turned her head and he caught her eye?

That said, it's a general consensus that she chose unwisely. What I meant to say was she had chosen unwisely, therefore I did not have pity for her.

Not pitying someone and saying she deserved what she got are completely different things. I don't pity her, as this wouldn't have occurred without her actions, but she deserved to be charged with assaulting an officer, not getting kicked in the head.

 

[danjuno]

I give up, okay?

 

[Berzerker]

I didn't realize that he had kicked her hard enough to potentially cause severe damage the first time I watched, so I apologize for not realizing that the first time around.

I basically agreed with you until I watched it a few more times and realized how close he came to hitting her in the eye/temple. It was just so unnecessary and then these clowns lie on the stand, and the thing with the joggers shows an instinct to hit people over BS (alright, who doesn't get peeved at joggers using up enough of the shoulder to force you into stopping or swerving into the other lane to get around?).

I'd still like to know what he said to her to get kicked

 

[LucyDuke]

She was telling him not to look in her purse, IIRC. This is the type of guy that, in front of his "family" (presumably including children) jumps out of his car to punch a jogger. I bet he's really good at pissing people off.

(According to the punched jogger, Krawetz swerved toward him and the other joggers.)


Found some more deets.

“I kicked her to avoid her kicking me again,” testified Krawetz. Krawetz said that she had already tried to kick him, nearly hitting him in the knee. "I'm worried that I was going to get kicked in the knee, which could cause me serious injury," said Krawetz during direct examination.

On cross-examination Krawetz conceded that he could have stepped back, away from Levesque instead. He admitted that his intent was to make contact with Levesque but he said he believed he had hit her in the shoulder.

Krawetz said he did not realize where he hit her until the next day when a superior told him he had hit the woman in the side of the head. He then amended his report. The initial report, filed the night of the incident did not mention any kicking.

source

If you think you might be kicked in the knee, you should wait until that attack has landed, then blindly kick at a shoulder. (Because kicking a shoulder is a good way to defend against a kick in the knee.) You don't need to look where you're kicking, you don't need to look at the results of your kick, and you certainly don't need to mention it when you report what happened.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

Once, I was choked by a roommate of mine. I looked him in the eyes and told him to squeeze harder and get his testicles out of my legs reach. He backed off, confused, and never choked me again.

Then again, I'm not some testosterone driven donkey who kicks women to prove they shouldn't play footsies with me.

Maybe I should stop trying to take the high road...seems there's idiots out there who will defend you, no matter what you do.