April 2021 Update - Patch Notes Discussion

That doesn't make the two issues related.

The point is people have right to be upset if the game isn't working correctly and that devs are working on seemingly pointless things. Like I click the pet dog button and all it does is move the cursor to the move unit button. The tool tip doesn't tell you anything so why is it in the game? Is it a cute easter egg? Sure, but the game has real issues that need addressing right now.

Aspyr does the console ports, not Firaxis and based on my buddy's switch experience they don't seem keen to actually fix any bugs. The main reason I'm worried about the upcoming KOTOR remake

I mean, who knows that is point. Firaxis has done console games themselves before so I image they are at least involved with fixing the issues but it's doesn't seem to be a high priority for them.
 
Well there we go my last* update to the Features Thread and for Civ 6** is now live


* Unless I missed or stuffed something up
** a hard maybe
 
I think Netherlands were (and remain) a strong civ based on their bonus, and to a lesser extent the Polder, but it is disappointing to see the domestic part of Radio Oranje still be effectively useless in all but the rarest circumstances.

For Egypt, I will admit I am personally disappointed primarily because I really like their kit in theory (rivers/floodplains, building wonders/districts faster, faith/culture/appeal/tourism from sphinxes), but in comparison to many other civs they are on the weaker side. I think they are an example of one of the original civs that hasn't kept up with the power creep of later-added civs, so I was hoping for something that was at least a boost to their existing abilities.

The Netherlands is a great civ solely because of their UA, but they definitely had problems with polder placement that needed to be addressed. I don't think there's going to be any substantial difference while playing as them now, to be honest. Maybe that's because they were already considered powerful, but why 'fix' mines and Seowons if you won't do the same for polders? I don't know.
 
This patch has been a disappointing experience, that it has proved so is 100% down to how Firaxis chose to promote it. Putting out press and early messaging that 2/3 of Civs would receive a balance pass. Tweeting about the word count of the patch notes (lol, the majority of it just detailing changes to combat stats) They had opportunity to temper expectations in the April update video but did not.

In another thread some posters tried to hand wave this away as "Firaxis is a games publisher, of course they are going to hype their releases", a notion that doesn't wash. 100% a company will amp up the hype for a purchaseable game. This was a free update so absolutely no need to overpromise and underdeliver.

Reworking some of the Civs that needed it and neglecting others leaves a really bad taste. A majority of these changes seem like there is not much reasoning to them. Certainly none of them required waiting until all the NFP Civs were released.

Everyone on this forum that is dismissing people as complaining about these patch notes is disregarding all of the above.
 
There were 27 civs, if I counted correctly, that received updates. Weren't there 50 civs to begin with and 2/3 were to be changed? Of them, the best changes are undoubtedly those to the Maya, Spain, Khmer, Canada, and Mapuche, and Georgia. These civs either had issues with their start biases or executing their abilities. The worst changes, to me, are split into two categories: ones that buffed already powerful civs (1) or barely impacted/nerfed mediocre ones (2).

In category 1, we have Korea and Inca. As of yesterday, I was convinced that Australia didn't need the coastal bias guarantee, but for a country like Australia, I can now understand it. Australia's problem was with Citadel of Civilization, anyway. Korea is now receiving extra science based on Seowon placement, which presumably was a bug (?) that should've originally been in the game. Extra science to Korea wasn't expected nor necessary, if the mine bonus wasn't working by design, just readjust the description to reflect this. Regarding Inca, they were already a very tall, production-heavy civ. I'm not sure what giving them more housing bonuses actually accomplished besides making them even stronger. You know what would have been a much better change to Inca? Making it so their UU wasn't a ranger replacement for whatever reason.

In category 2, we have Poland, Scotland, Netherlands, Zulu, and Sumeria. As if yesterday's stream wasn't bad enough, Poland's patch notes don't reflect the changes to the Winged Hussar at all; I suppose this is a mistake, but I'm a bit perplexed about where they went. I could write a whole thesis about why Poland's change is worthless and actually detrimental to them, but I would just encourage anyone who argues that Poland is in a good place to look at the new Khmer and tell me why Poland could ever expect to compete with them. Also, just consider, please, how Poland can actually now aid another civ in getting a religious victory through their culture bombs. On encampments, no less!

Scotland was just ignored for zero reason whatsoever. The community has been abundantly vocal about Scotland needing a change and this has been completely ignored. With amenities and happiness being updated in previous patches, it was only rational Scotland would be adjusted to these new numbers; why haven't they been? You don't need to play for that long to realize there's not many advantages to ecstatic cities, and Scotland's measly bonuses don't encourage the extra effort. Don't even get me started on how their other leader ability just doesn't exist at all.

Quick plug for Netherland's Radio Oranje. I don't mind the new changes. With an average of 15 trade routes, you're gaining 30 guaranteed culture from the ability, and it's worth remembering that culture is hard to come by at the beginning. I think it's still weak like Peter's Grand Embassy, but at least it's not that awful. I would just like to point out Radio Oranje was rated as the worst civ ability by this forum and probably did, therefore, deserve something much more than a simple +1.

Now to Zulu - the Ikanda changes don't erase the fact that Zulu's position in the game has been made much worse through the addition of new units. If you're conquering, gold shouldn't be a problem for the Zulu, but where did the science come from...? +1 isn't much at all. I would be interested in trying this ability out to see if you can do some conquest-science economy, but I just believe Zulu didn't really get what they deserved out of this.

Sumeria is a weird case, but I just don't fundamentally believe their changes were that significant. I'm still uncertain how this stacks (is it theoretically possible for Sumeria to get +20 combat strength against other units? I'm not really sure), but they didn't really address Sumeria's main problems. I think that's my biggest grievance about most of these changes, honestly. Sumeria really struggled because their abilities were lackluster and the civ itself was only good because of the UU and UI. Now, it has another 'bonus' plopped onto the ability, but the fundamental problems of Sumeria haven't really changed. Allies won't engage in much combat, so you're almost never going to get those pillage bonuses. A tribal village bonus from barbarians is so situational and will happen, what, 5 times throughout the game, whereas other civs (like Inca now) will be utilizing theirs all game long? Moreover, the tribal village reward is just a lottery ticket - not consistent at all!

Overall, I'm quite negative about what I've seen here, but mainly because our suggestions just haven't been listened to at all, and it's obvious now. If Scotland was changed, if Radio Oranje received something else, if Poland was just... not absolutely terrible, I would've been happy. But calling this the "biggest community update" was a disgrace when the community through the balance mods have done the changes much better. I'm sorry for my constant pining here lately, but when I instinctively scrolled down to Scotland and saw nothing... that was ridiculous. As I said yesterday, this was rushed and they needed to take another week or two to actually listen to us.

Edit: I completely forgot about Egypt being ignored. Consider them placed in category 2 for the same reason as explained with Scotland.

The Winged Hussar's changes are under Heavy Cavalry
 
Norway (not Viking! Sheesh. Vikings are an occupation, not a people) got a major boost to Berzerkers. Not only can you prebuild them, but their defensive penalty isn't incurred by ranged attacks now.

I missed the change to their defending the first time through - that actually makes the berserker a pretty terrifying unit now, particularly if you combine with a few ranged of your own. Your ranged units can weaken opposing melee, while the berserkers will utterly demolish opposing ranged (and won't get hurt as much by cities if there are walls up).
 
This is an ..... interesting set of patch notes.

I certainly tempered my expectations due to this being a free patch, so I won’t say I’m underwhelmed (and one poster in particular needs to cool those jets) but I’m definitely confused.

I’d chalk this one up to potentially poor communication between FX and the community. 2/3 of the Civs were impacted by change, but certainly 2/3 were not impacted by meaningful change.

It seems that FX internal view of Civ balance does not align with the community view, and if they were more vocal about *why* they were making some changes then it might be less opaque. Scotland receiving nothing while Korea is buffed is a BAFFLING decision so I’d be interested in the rationale, particularly as they have been taking the shine off of Scotland’s one great ability with changes done in NFP.

I adore Ladysixsky though so I’m very pleased with the Maya changes.
 
Aspyr does the console ports, not Firaxis and based on my buddy's switch experience they don't seem keen to actually fix any bugs. The main reason I'm worried about the upcoming KOTOR remake

Interesting. I play on XBone and generally can see a lot of similar bugs/fixes discussed here. I've also never had to re-install and havent had too bad of crash issues, maybe 1 time per four hours playing
 
I guess I was hoping for more significant changes on more of the civs, a lot of these are pretty minor tweaks that don't really re-balance the civ as far as making them better or worse at any particular victory condition than they were before.

Also hopeful, but not expecting to see, they fixed some of the bugs affecting the various game modes.
 
I'm satisfied with the Netherlands change. Making 4 domestic trade routes from one city will give an equal amount of loyalty pressure to a governor instead of 8, and it's far easier to get to 4 available trade routes than to 8 with increasing building costs and having to plant enough cities and so on. I think its a fair price for a decent forward settling potential.
 
Well there we go my last* update to the Features Thread and for Civ 6** is now live


* Unless I missed or stuffed something up
** a hard maybe

That has been 54 updates across 346 days, which is a neat 11 months and 11 days
 
Lots to like in this patch. Thanks for all the hard work from the Firaxis team!

This reminds me of when the naval combat system in V was completely reworked to create distinction ranged and melee naval. That’s the level of rebalance to the combat system that seems to have happened here.

Very happy to see most of the civ changes. 90% were fully functional before, so it makes sense that only a few got a major overhaul.

Re, Inca: Boosted terrace farm is probably because mountains have no housing.

Re, Scotland: Scotland is great already. I feel Bannockburn has been criminally underrated by the community at large since ever. Make more friends. Stick up for the little guy. Be happy.

Re, Netherlands: Agree with Grotte Rivieran being an already stupidly powerful ability. The boost to Radio is acceptable. It’s not a lot, but maybe about as strong as a pantheon.
 
It seems that FX internal view of Civ balance does not align with the community view, and if they were more vocal about *why* they were making some changes then it might be less opaque. Scotland receiving nothing while Korea is buffed is a BAFFLING decision so I’d be interested in the rationale.

I feel like this has been a big problem with the NFP in general. Very little communication about why this or that mechanic works the way it does, the inspiration behind stuff and, most importantly, the devs philosophy and vision for the game. It's hard for players to understand why things are done the way the are if the devs don't tell them why. Like, I have a lot of complaints about the game but I have no idea if they are valid or not because I have no idea about how the devs view the game and what they want it to be.
 
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This patch has been a disappointing experience, that it has proved so is 100% down to how Firaxis chose to promote it. Putting out press and early messaging that 2/3 of Civs would receive a balance pass. Tweeting about the word count of the patch notes (lol, the majority of it just detailing changes to combat stats) They had opportunity to temper expectations in the April update video but did not.

In another thread some posters tried to hand wave this away as "Firaxis is a games publisher, of course they are going to hype their releases", a notion that doesn't wash. 100% a company will amp up the hype for a purchaseable game. This was a free update so absolutely no need to overpromise and underdeliver.

Reworking some of the Civs that needed it and neglecting others leaves a really bad taste. A majority of these changes seem like there is not much reasoning to them. Certainly none of them required waiting until all the NFP Civs were released.

Everyone on this forum that is dismissing people as complaining about these patch notes is disregarding all of the above.

You're absolutely correct and I wish the people who were saying that it's still good accepted this point in particular. We can disagree all we want about the content of the patch, but this was, as you said, down to Firaxis' promotion of it. Why claim it's the biggest community event when the community wasn't involved in it... at all? The April update video would have been the perfect time to address the hype and admit it, saying "these are the civs that need the most help so we fixed them, expect minor tweaks to the others". Instead, we had so many different exceptions and very few were fulfilled. Remember how many of us were just naturally assuming Egypt and Scotland would finally get the help they needed?

I agree with you about the bad taste. After having bought every expansion for this game, I feel really ridiculous. I even bought the NFP civs separately because I wasn't sure if I liked the pass (fun fact, you don't get Bull Moose Teddy or Magnificent Catherine if you paid more money to buy them all individually). Yes, I get that it's 'free', but when you load $100 worth of content onto the base game that ends up breaking or significantly weakening existing civs, you should still go back and change it. Instead, the best got better and the worst got worse.

The Winged Hussar's changes are under Heavy Cavalry

Thank you for showing me where this was! It was mentioned explicitly with Poland yesterday so I assumed it to with them.
 
I'm satisfied with the Netherlands change. Making 4 domestic trade routes from one city will give an equal amount of loyalty pressure to a governor instead of 8, and it's far easier to get to 4 available trade routes than to 8 with increasing building costs and having to plant enough cities and so on. I think its a fair price for a decent forward settling potential.

With four internal trade routes the food alone will probably solve the loyalty issues alone with just population growth.

Re, Scotland: Scotland is great already. I feel Bannockburn has been criminally underrated by the community at large since ever. Make more friends. Stick up for the little guy. Be happy.

The problem is that it depends on the AI conquering a city which isn't guaranteed, especially at lower difficulties.
 
Firaxis staff have been very active in the community over the last year, @Andrew Johnson [FXS] here and Carl on Twitch especially.

I'm watching the Game Mechanics' stream on twitch now and Carl is there interacting.
 
We refer to all our updates as Community Updates, and the community was very much involved in the creation of this patch. Most of our balance changes were based directly on fan feedback, including from these forums. Thank you all for your input, and please keep it coming!

With regards to The Netherlands, please keep in mind that Radio Oranje also applies to trade routes you receive from other players, including City-States. This is probably more significant than you think!
 
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