The 30 year late automobile insult was accidental, but now I almost wish it wasn't.
"Asian guys in my show? Not gonna happen!"
- Thread starter Atlantic Pacf.
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Timsup2nothin
Deity
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LOL...if I tell a ten year old Asian American that "Japanese cars are demonstrations of Asian inferiority" he is going to laugh in my face, and deservedly so.
Truthfully, from reading this thread the thing that engenders the most sympathy in me for the young Asian American kids is the way you guys say they are treated by their own parents.
As to 'reading and learning about' genuine effects of racism, I'd rather learn by taking a walk. At least in my neighborhood if someone takes offense to a racist remark and I ask them why their explanation won't start out with "Well, back thirty years ago..." I know plenty of guys with chips on their shoulder, but I don't know anyone carting one that old.
To give an idea why I'm not going to get excited about the 'hidden racism' inherent in talking about forty year old Honda cars, inside these spoilers is a link to a more current display. It is grotesque in its blatancy and includes some language, so not fit for younger viewers.
Spoiler :
Some days I find myself embarrassed to be a human being.
In that spoiler, it is obviously the white guys being punished for exercising their free speech rights.
Well what you describe sounds very similar to many of the stereotypes about Asians... that they are timid, weak, docile, submissive, socially awkward, and also nerdy, obedient, studious, etc. It sounds like what you are saying is that the stereotypes are true, and Asian parents are to blame for teaching their children to live up to these stereotypes. Is that what you are saying? If so then how can you simultaneously bemoan the stereotypes? For example, who told you that you were part of the "model minority?" Did your parents use that term? Or did you come up with that term yourself to describe your perception of what Asians are/should be? I have never heard Asians described as the "model minority" before.
You mean Asian-Americans right? Cause I see a lot of Asians marching, protesting, rioting etc in Mumbai, in China, and other countries all over Asia. If your point is that American Asians don't protest... OK... but why? Why is it that Asians in India, and China and Taiwan, Nepal and Myanmar, etc seem perfectly willing to do all those things that you say Asians don't do? What is different about those Asians? Is it that they are facing some actual hardships in their lives, that actually warrant protests? Or do you feel that they are (and I admit I am extrapolating here) just lazy troublemakers like the people who do that sort of thing in the US?
Again, what "Asian culture in general"? You've seen the protests and political unrest constantly going on in Asia... BTW, The Middle-East, Pakistan, Iran... those are all in Asia too, just sayin'
... It does sound like you are saying that you embrace the stereotypes associated with Asians and as you say "fetishize" them. Is that correct? Do you buy in to the Asian stereotypes I mentioned?
warpus
In pork I trust
In the U.S. "Asians" generally just means East Asians. It's a silly convention, but that's what most people mean here when they say "Asians".
It's true that some people in the US do just mean Chinese, Japanese, Korean when they say "Asian", (see
but many people in the US do understand Asian to include Indochina, Indonesia, Polynesia, etc, as well as Indians and some Arabs. Mentioning the Middle East was an aside in any case... there is plenty of ongoing turmoil in "East-Asia" to make my point.
Spoiler :
but many people in the US do understand Asian to include Indochina, Indonesia, Polynesia, etc, as well as Indians and some Arabs. Mentioning the Middle East was an aside in any case... there is plenty of ongoing turmoil in "East-Asia" to make my point.
warpus
In pork I trust
I would say it's a convention that most people ascribe to, perhaps subconsciously. "Asian" usually means someone of Japanese, Korean, or Chinese descent. I think it's pretty stupid too, but it seems to have stuck.
In the UK "Asian" generally refers to south asians only, for example.
I get that it's not everyone who does this, but when you walk up to a random person on the street and show them a picture of an Israeli man, a Kazakhstani man, and a Japanese guy, all labelled, and ask "Which one of these is Asian?", most people won't say ".. All of them are".
I'm just trying to say that these stereotypes that are being discussed as "asian" for teh most part only apply to east Asians (and in some ways to south asians too).
In the UK "Asian" generally refers to south asians only, for example.
I get that it's not everyone who does this, but when you walk up to a random person on the street and show them a picture of an Israeli man, a Kazakhstani man, and a Japanese guy, all labelled, and ask "Which one of these is Asian?", most people won't say ".. All of them are".
I'm just trying to say that these stereotypes that are being discussed as "asian" for teh most part only apply to east Asians (and in some ways to south asians too).
Crackerbox
King
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Hmmm, so being peaceful and patriotic and not bucking the system is docile? Interesting. So putting the irritation into acquiring an education such as to improve one's income and economic stability is weak? So ignoring the words of bigots and working diligently to get the next generation to study and succeed is being nerdy?
Interesting.
Anyone can be a spin-doctor and turn "educated" into "nerdy". The reality is that this Asian-American tactic has resulted in very real statistics of improved economic success in spite of perpetual media depictions of Asian-Americans. Who then is winning, the institutional bigots who try to put down Asian-Americans with Hollywood images of inferiority or the overwhelming number of Asians with professional certification who slowly but surely build themselves up?
"But despite often sizable subgroup differences, Asian Americans are distinctive as a whole, especially when compared with all U.S. adults, whom they exceed not just in the share with a college degree (49% vs. 28%), but also in median annual household income ($66,000 versus $49,800) and median household wealth ($83,500 vs. $68,529).4
They are noteworthy in other ways, too. According to the Pew Research Center survey of a nationally representative sample of 3,511 Asian Americans, conducted by telephone from Jan. 3 to March 27, 2012, in English and seven Asian languages, they are more satisfied than the general public with their lives overall (82% vs. 75%), their personal finances (51% vs. 35%) and the general direction of the country (43% vs. 21%).
They also stand out for their strong emphasis on family. More than half (54%) say that having a successful marriage is one of the most important things in life; just 34% of all American adults agree. Two-thirds of Asian-American adults (67%) say that being a good parent is one of the most important things in life; just 50% of all adults agree.
Their living arrangements align with these values. They are more likely than all American adults to be married (59% vs. 51%); their newborns are less likely than all U.S. newborns to have an unmarried mother (16% vs. 41%); and their children are more likely than all U.S. children to be raised in a household with two married parents (80% vs. 63%).
They are more likely than the general public to live in multi-generational family households. Some 28% live with at least two adult generations under the same roof, twice the share of whites and slightly more than the share of blacks and Hispanics who live in such households. U.S. Asians also have a strong sense of filial respect; about two-thirds say parents should have a lot or some influence in choosing one’s profession (66%) and spouse (61%).
Asian Americans have a pervasive belief in the rewards of hard work. Nearly seven-in-ten (69%) say people can get ahead if they are willing to work hard, a view shared by a somewhat smaller share of the American public as a whole (58%). And fully 93% of Asian Americans describe members of their country of origin group as “very hardworking”; just 57% say the same about Americans as a whole.
By their own lights, Asian Americans sometimes go overboard in stressing hard work. Nearly four-in-ten (39%) say that Asian-American parents from their country of origin subgroup put too much pressure on their children to do well in school. Just 9% say the same about all American parents. On the flip-side of the same coin, about six-in-ten Asian Americans say American parents put too little pressure on their children to succeed in school, while just 9% say the same about Asian-American parents. (The publication last year of “Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother,” a comic memoir about strict parenting by Yale Law Professor Amy Chua, the daughter of immigrants, triggered a spirited debate about cultural differences in parenting norm."
Interesting.
Anyone can be a spin-doctor and turn "educated" into "nerdy". The reality is that this Asian-American tactic has resulted in very real statistics of improved economic success in spite of perpetual media depictions of Asian-Americans. Who then is winning, the institutional bigots who try to put down Asian-Americans with Hollywood images of inferiority or the overwhelming number of Asians with professional certification who slowly but surely build themselves up?
"But despite often sizable subgroup differences, Asian Americans are distinctive as a whole, especially when compared with all U.S. adults, whom they exceed not just in the share with a college degree (49% vs. 28%), but also in median annual household income ($66,000 versus $49,800) and median household wealth ($83,500 vs. $68,529).4
They are noteworthy in other ways, too. According to the Pew Research Center survey of a nationally representative sample of 3,511 Asian Americans, conducted by telephone from Jan. 3 to March 27, 2012, in English and seven Asian languages, they are more satisfied than the general public with their lives overall (82% vs. 75%), their personal finances (51% vs. 35%) and the general direction of the country (43% vs. 21%).
They also stand out for their strong emphasis on family. More than half (54%) say that having a successful marriage is one of the most important things in life; just 34% of all American adults agree. Two-thirds of Asian-American adults (67%) say that being a good parent is one of the most important things in life; just 50% of all adults agree.
Their living arrangements align with these values. They are more likely than all American adults to be married (59% vs. 51%); their newborns are less likely than all U.S. newborns to have an unmarried mother (16% vs. 41%); and their children are more likely than all U.S. children to be raised in a household with two married parents (80% vs. 63%).
They are more likely than the general public to live in multi-generational family households. Some 28% live with at least two adult generations under the same roof, twice the share of whites and slightly more than the share of blacks and Hispanics who live in such households. U.S. Asians also have a strong sense of filial respect; about two-thirds say parents should have a lot or some influence in choosing one’s profession (66%) and spouse (61%).
Asian Americans have a pervasive belief in the rewards of hard work. Nearly seven-in-ten (69%) say people can get ahead if they are willing to work hard, a view shared by a somewhat smaller share of the American public as a whole (58%). And fully 93% of Asian Americans describe members of their country of origin group as “very hardworking”; just 57% say the same about Americans as a whole.
By their own lights, Asian Americans sometimes go overboard in stressing hard work. Nearly four-in-ten (39%) say that Asian-American parents from their country of origin subgroup put too much pressure on their children to do well in school. Just 9% say the same about all American parents. On the flip-side of the same coin, about six-in-ten Asian Americans say American parents put too little pressure on their children to succeed in school, while just 9% say the same about Asian-American parents. (The publication last year of “Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother,” a comic memoir about strict parenting by Yale Law Professor Amy Chua, the daughter of immigrants, triggered a spirited debate about cultural differences in parenting norm."
Docile means - Easily taught or managed. Do you think this word applies to the stereotypical perception of Asians or not?
What about "studious?" Do you think that the word "studious" applies to what you describe or not?
Well, yes that is exactly what the term "nerdy" implies. When I think of someone nerdy, I think of someone who does not stand up to bullies, ridiculers etc. I think of a person who gives up on having a vibrant "social life" and instead just focuses on schoolwork so that they can be financially successful later. So yes "educated" and "nerdy" often do go hand in hand in-terms of stereotypes. So are you saying that you don't think that educated people are stereotyped as being nerdy?
I notice the article you cite mentions the "multi-generational household" as one of the signs of the industrious character of Asians as contrasted with other groups. But did you notice that they said this practice is "only slightly higher" than other minorities? As in so miniscule that they didn't even mention the statistical number? In other words all minorities have the same or similar rates of multi-generational homes... However, with Asians it is praised as a sign of their industriousness, because that is what fits the desired stereotypical narrative... while in other minorities the same practice is condemned as a sign of their laziness, because again, that is what fits the desired stereotypical narrative.
As you say... "Spin-doctors can spin" these statistics to mean whatever they want.
Note that these statistics all deal with perception rather than reality... "X% of people think such-and-such to be so" or "X% of people say that such-and-such will happen"
Than being said, I would like to point out how these statistics are cleverly, selectively reported (by the article itself not CB) to prop-up the desired stereotypical narrative. For example, to paraphrase, almost 70% of Asians believe in the American dream, but only around 60% of Americans overall... OK, but what about non-minorities? What percentage of them believe in the American dream? What about Blacks? What percent of Blacks believe in it?
I would guess that about as high or a higher percentage of non-minorities believe in the American dream than Asians. I would also guess that the numbers among Blacks would be considerably lower than all other groups. Why? Because it is a reflection of reality. Non-minorities believe in the American dream because they have access to it. Asians believe in the American dream because they have seen that it works for them. But these statistics would not support the narrative the article is spinning. That is why they are selectively left out.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Start a poll thread "What is your ethnicity", or something like this.
Narz
keeping it real
Money = influence. If you have a few billion dollars for instance & control a major news media outlet you're going to "control the world" more that Joe Schmo the media-consumer.
Obviously wealth isn't totally correlated to influence. Plenty of weathy people don't feel any need to influence the world & are happy merely to be rich.
Narz
keeping it real
Why I think 'Asian' I think of Chinese/Japanese/Korean people. Not geographically totally correct but just the way I think of them. I consider India separately as well as Russia & former soviet nations & don't think of Middle Easterns as 'Asian" (even though they are of course).Again, what "Asian culture in general"? You've seen the protests and political unrest constantly going on in Asia... BTW, The Middle-East, Pakistan, Iran... those are all in Asia too, just sayin'
Kind of like when people say African they generally mean sub-Saharan, not Egyptian (which I also consider Middle-Eastern culturally).
Not saying my views are right/ideal, this is just how I talk/think.
Borachio
Way past lunacy
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Also more intelligent, more virtuous and, naturally, more modest.
Stands to reason. My imagination is a poor feeble thing indeed.
I think South Asians and Middle Easterners used to be considered white in the US statistically and South Asians wanted this back when people saw it as less advantageous to be counted as a minority. I remember reading this in a book about Asian Americans but I'm not entirely sure and it's been awhile since I read this.
I remember looking at a statistics form several years ago when it listed that people of Middle Eastern origin were to count themselves as white. This was a form that was unusually detailed, I think most just do not specify and you can count yourself as you want.
It's very confusing with Middle Eastern people because they don't easily fit into a color schemed racial category. Some are very European looking. Most people wouldn't say Ralph Nader isn't white. It just shows how the American way of looking at race doesn't make a lot of sense outside of the traditional American racial society.
I remember looking at a statistics form several years ago when it listed that people of Middle Eastern origin were to count themselves as white. This was a form that was unusually detailed, I think most just do not specify and you can count yourself as you want.
It's very confusing with Middle Eastern people because they don't easily fit into a color schemed racial category. Some are very European looking. Most people wouldn't say Ralph Nader isn't white. It just shows how the American way of looking at race doesn't make a lot of sense outside of the traditional American racial society.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
You know what, there is no natural boundary between Europe and Asia, so it's hard to determine where one ends and the other begins. As Konrad Adenauer used to say "Asia begins east of the Elbe River". So you and me would be Asians as well by such definition. "Eurasian" is a compromise, I guess.
warpus
In pork I trust
Sure, but those who refer to east Asians as "Asians" in North America at the same time acknowledge that Asia extends beyond the borders of China, Korea, and Japan. It's not really a problem. It's just an odd.. linguistic convention.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Narz said:
That's because you think in phenotypical (how people look like) and not geographical categories.
This perception is more or less in agreement with genetic data.
Eurasia is generally a genetic continuum - but in some areas there is no such gentle continuum, and instead sharp shifts in phenotypes occur.
In Southern Asia you have one of such rapid shifts in the borderland between Bangladesh and Burma, and another one along the Himalayas between India and Tibet (the latter one is much more obvious, because gene flow across the Himalayas is practically impossible - people need to go around them):
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/03/where-the-wild-clines-arent/#.VAiMvqNTo0-
So imagine you go along the blue line from west to east - after crossing the black mark, you will see how people look increasingly different:
