Ask a Mormon, Part 4

[warpus]

It's not really signing anybody up for anything. Somebody who was baptized by proxy doesn't go on church membership rolls. It wouldn't say anywhere that they were/are a Mormon. The ordinance would be to give them a choice....remember that throughout the course of human history, very few people had a "choice" to be Christians at all, let alone Mormons.

Maybe I shouldn't have used that as an example because I disagree with this on an intellectual level.

You just don't do that sort of thing to someone unless you have their permission. Isn't that some sort of an American ideal, too? You don't infringe someone's liberty?

Ask them first, and if they say no, you don't do it. If they agree, go ahead. Don't you agree that this is a very sensible and civilized (and even American) way to go about living your life?

Besides, what if God ends up sending all Mormons to hell? What if you guys are wrong? What if you are condemning all those souls to hell? It works either way.

Your analogy doesn't really work, since digging up a dead mormon and putting cream cheese all over his body is illegal, and obviously more harmful than doing somebody's family tree work for them and using their name.

Yeah, bad example. Think of something legal yet equally offensive.

 

[warpus]

My objection to this posthumous baptism nonsense could very well be something that's ingrained in my moral compass by my upbringing. I have talked about this with other people born in Poland and they all find it equally as offensive.

We all agree: Leave the dead alone.

With that in mind, I'd hope that your church leaders would at least ask permission before doing this first. Some people will not care but obviously some will.

Why not do the polite thing and ask first?

 

[_random_]

Have you ever done door-to-door work? Do people often offer you booze and/or coffee as a joke?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Besides, what if God ends up sending all Mormons to hell? What if you guys are wrong? What if you are condemning all those souls to hell? It works either way.

A god who sends people to hell because someone was baptized on their behalf in the LDS Church is . . . the sort of god who would be sending lots of people to hell for even worse reasons, I think.

Yeah, bad example. Think of something legal yet equally offensive.

If you want me to come up with something equally offensive to what we are doing here . . . I will end up coming with something that isn't offensive at all.

Have you ever done door-to-door work? Do people often offer you booze and/or coffee as a joke?

Yeah, I tracted a lot on my mission. People would offer us booze and/or coffee as a joke . . . or booze and/or coffee in a sincere effort to be polite . . . or would offer us Coke, or wish us Merry Christmas, in a misguided effort to be mean.

 

[downtown]

Why not do the polite thing and ask first?

When possible, we will. It gets tricky if you have to track down the last living relative of a 16th century Mongolian.

Have you ever done door-to-door work? Do people often offer you booze and/or coffee as a joke?

I did door to door work as well, and found that generally, people were pretty polite. Nobody offered me booze or cigs as a joke, although I did have 2 people come to the door with guns. That was disappointing.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I had a couple of people claim to be Satan worshipers - that was a claim that never stood up to scrutiny. (They expected us to run away in terror, we were actually just curious and asked them about it.)

 

[GhostWriter16]

On the one hand, I agree with the principle that baptism in the LDS (Or any other) church should be voluntary (Though I'm biased by the fact that I don't believe in infant baptism and neither does my church) but I also don't think any major religion teaches that you can be damned for something you literally had no choice in.

 

[_random_]

Yeah, I tracted a lot on my mission. People would offer us booze and/or coffee as a joke . . . or booze and/or coffee in a sincere effort to be polite . . . or would offer us Coke, or wish us Merry Christmas, in a misguided effort to be mean.

How often did people confuse you with Jehovah's Witnesses?

I had a couple of people claim to be Satan worshipers - that was a claim that never stood up to scrutiny. (They expected us to run away in terror, we were actually just curious and asked them about it.)

Heh. Any other interesting or amusing tales of tracting? What were the most unusual sincere beliefs you encountered? How much success did you have in converting people?

 

[GhostWriter16]

Not in the traditional sense. Those who do not repent of their sins, in this life or the next, will have to suffer for them, but not eternally - after that, they will move on to an afterlife that, no matter how wicked they were in this life, is unimaginably better than anything we can experience on earth.

What exactly happens to those who commit the unforgivable sin?

Also, the Bible does say "Broad is the way that leads to destruction." Are the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms really "Destruction"? How are these passages interpreted?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

How often did people confuse you with Jehovah's Witnesses?

Well, maybe once every month or so something like that would come up. But it was mostly around Christmas, like I said. Always brought a smile to my face.

Heh. Any other interesting or amusing tales of tracting? What were the most unusual sincere beliefs you encountered? How much success did you have in converting people?

Well, I ran into a Wiccan once. We tried talking to her but she didn't really want to (a lot of people would be reticent because they assumed that we were asking just to criticize; we were always really just curious). And this being LA, there were a lot of people with sort of vague ideas about spirituality and whatnot. And several people who would tell us long, drawn out, bizarre stories that led us to conclude that they were not firing on all cylinders.

Relatively few of the people we ran into tracting would join; compared to other methods, tracting is very high-volume, low-yield. But since it puts us into contact with the highest number of people, it ends up being what we are most known for.

What exactly happens to those who commit the unforgivable sin?

They are cut out from God's presence completely.

Also, the Bible does say "Broad is the way that leads to destruction." Are the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms really "Destruction"? How are these passages interpreted?

In the long run, inheriting a lesser degree of glory isn't destruction; but making bad choices throughout life can be seen as a form of spiritual destruction, I suppose.

 

[GhostWriter16]

They are cut out from God's presence completely.

Does this create a situation similar to a traditional Christian hel or is it still very different?

In the long run, inheriting a lesser degree of glory isn't destruction; but making bad choices throughout life can be seen as a form of spiritual destruction, I suppose.

Fair enough (I could probably argue but am more focused on healing from sickness)

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Does this create a situation similar to a traditional Christian hel or is it still very different?

We don't really have any details besides the fact that it's called "outer darkness".

Fair enough (I could probably argue but am more focused on healing from sickness)

Eh, that's largely my own interpretation of it anyways. We tend not to have "official" interpretations of most Bible passages.

 

[otago]

Interesting, they do not baptise victims of the Holocaust, but, victms of the Holocaust were not all Jewish, so it seems they are giving the relatives of SOME Christian dead a choice but not others.

Does the Mormon church baptise Muslim dead and do they tell members of the Muslim faith they are doing that ?

 

[Agent327]

Sorry, not relevant to this thread:

4. The North winning doesn't actually change what the constitution says.

That´s incorrect: a precedent was created.

I do have a question, which I feel was unsatisfactorily answered on another thread:

What, if any, is the feel among Mormons concerning Mitt Romney running for Republican presidential candidacy, with regard to the reports of Mr Romney having offshore accounts, thereby attempting to evade the taxes of the country he apparently desires to be president of? Do you know? (I ask mainly because I understand Mr Romney has some function within the Mormon church. The answer given was along the lines of ´we don´t care´...)

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Does the Mormon church baptise Muslim dead and do they tell members of the Muslim faith they are doing that ?

In terms of who we have baptisms performed for, and how we do it, we don't really distinguish based on what religion the person was.

I do have a question, which I feel was unsatisfactorily answered on another thread:

What, if any, is the feel among Mormons concerning Mitt Romney running for Republican presidential candidacy, with regard to the reports of Mr Romney having offshore accounts, thereby attempting to evade the taxes of the country he apparently desires to be president of? Do you know? (I ask mainly because I understand Mr Romney has some function within the Mormon church. The answer given was along the lines of ´we don´t care´...)

Well, I don't know that most members care that much. Offshore accounts aren't illegal, and he is hardly the first person to make use of them, and I am pretty sure I have never heard any other member express an opinion of it.

 

[Plotinus]

... I also don't think any major religion teaches that you can be damned for something you literally had no choice in.

The Catholic Church does, or at least it leaves open the possibility. Indeed anyone with a strong view of sacraments would at least tend towards this view.

 

[Yeekim]

A god who sends people to hell because someone was baptized on their behalf in the LDS Church is . . . the sort of god who would be sending lots of people to hell for even worse reasons, I think.

Did you want to say:

A god who sends people to hell because someone was baptized on their behalf in the LDS Church is . . . pretty much like the sort of god who would be sending people to hell for NOT being baptized by LDS Church.

 

[Jehoshua]

The Catholic Church does, or at least it leaves open the possibility. Indeed anyone with a strong view of sacraments would at least tend towards this view.

I believe your referring to the Church's belief that Baptism absolutely necessary for salvation in consideration of the idea than mankind intrinsically is unworthy of salvation on his own merits and must be purified of original sin and enter into the communion of Christ in order to ensure the possibility of his salvation.

Incidentally the Church's doctrine holds that water baptism is a normative necessity not absolute , the requirement of baptism can be fulfilled for the unbaptised via martyrdom (baptism by blood) or through an explicit or implict desire to enter into the unity of the Church should they not be able to recieve the material sacrament (Baptism by Desire).

-

Now I might as well ask a question of mormonism. One thing I would like to ask is how do you harmonise the mormon idea of the trinity as three seperate beings (what to me is the same as three separate gods) united only by a common and perfectly harmonious purpose, with the idea of monotheism that is a fundamental core concept of Christianity and indeed the entire abrahamic sphere of religions?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Did you want to say: "A god who sends people to hell because someone was baptized on their behalf in the LDS Church is . . . pretty much like the sort of god who would be sending people to hell for NOT being baptized by LDS Church."

Well . . . not exactly of course. I would say that I don't understand WHY baptism is necessary, but God has made sure that it gets taken care of.

 

[Agent327]

Well, I don't know that most members care that much. Offshore accounts aren't illegal, and he is hardly the first person to make use of them, and I am pretty sure I have never heard any other member express an opinion of it.

Interesting. But what about the first part of my question: how about Mitt Romney himself, seeing as he is he Mormon; how do Mormons feel about him trying to run for president?