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Flying Pig said:
Can you be a christian without believing in the idea of heaven and/or hell?

There was (and may still be) a strand of Christianity which holds that since God is all merciful and forgives all sins there cannot be 'Hell' as we conceive of it. There's another strand which was a bit of a toure de force in Christianity which had a slight variation on that theme, it held that all must eventually be forgiven for their sins, irregardless of what they did or did not do in life -- so 'Hell' might be debunked on that point. Dante's Hell, it seems, is optional. That's a bit further afield that Annihilationism and Conditional Immortality and goes by the name Universal reconciliation and is part and parcel of Christian Universalism, or so I understand.
 
[Maimonides] Thanks for the explanation - as usual!

Doesn't Matthew have more of Jesus's birth in it?

Both Matthew and Luke describe the circumstances of Jesus' birth (Mark and John introduce him as an adult). However, the stories they tell are very different and not easy to reconcile.

Did any expressly literary works (e.g. Paradise Lost, The Divine Comedy) have a strong influence on serious theology? If so, which works are those and what influences did they have?

Don't include stuff like the Bible or Platonic dialogues in your definition of a literary work for the purpose of this question.

I'm not sure about this. I think that Dante was influential but mainly as a populariser of Thomism. I think that Paradise Lost was also influential, but on popular piety rather than on anything original. I can't really think of any examples of the kind of think you're talking about.

Do Muslims make better Christians?

I don't know what you mean by that.

1st Corinthians (and correct me if I'm wrong) was written about 15-20ish years after Christ's death. Does the fact that the Paul mentions witnesses that the people of the church who are reading this letter could still go and talk to give any extra credence to the factuality of what Paul is saying? By that I mean, if Paul didn't believe what he was saying to be true, do you think that he would have been so forthright in mentioning all of the witnesses...or could Paul have just been saying that hoping no one would go and try to collaborate his story about the witnesses?

I'm sure it lends credence to what he's saying. However, one of the problems with this passage is that the resurrection appearance to five hundred witnesses isn't mentioned in any other source whatsoever, so we know nothing about it. It seems inexplicable that Luke should not see fit to mention it in Acts, for example! This is just part of the notorious problem of getting some kind of consistent story by comparing all the resurrection accounts in the New Testament.

Can you be a christian without believing in the idea of heaven and/or hell?

No. That's a major part of Christian theology (granted, there are many disagreements about the exact details of Heaven and Hell among the denominations and sects) but I would say that to be a Christian you have to believe in Christ's redemptive work on the cross, that he died so that those who believe in him would have eternal life. Christ himself talks about eternal life, so I would think a Christian would be one that follow's Christ's own words.

If you take away Christ's resurrection (and I don't know anyone that believes in Christ's resurrection that doesn't believe that Christ's purpose was as a Savior) you don't have Christianity - you have just another crazy guy.

Granted, Plotinus may disagree with me. But I doubt you will find a Christian that would ever call someone who didn't believe in Heaven and Hell (or at least, Hell as an eternity without God) a fellow Christian.

I'm afraid I must disagree completely with Moss on this one. Let me be clear what "heaven" and "hell" actually are, to start with.

The primitive Christian belief was in the resurrection of the dead. Christians believed that, at the end of time, everyone would be physically raised from the dead, judged, and sent off to their eternal reward. This is the "new heaven and new earth" described at the end of Revelation. It is an idea that comes straight from Pharisaic theology, and this is why it is so important in Paul's writings, since he was a Pharisee and interpreted Jesus' resurrection as a Pharisee would: as a sign that the end of time was nigh.

However, as MagisterCultuum says, many people in antiquity believed that the soul was immaterial and immortal, and that it survives the death of the body. Many Christians also believed this and indeed just took it for granted. There are also some passages of the Bible that seem to support it (mainly the story of Dives and Lazarus). So a complex belief developed which combined these two ideas - the idea of the resurrection of the dead and the idea of the immortality of the soul. Many Christians believed that when you die, your soul goes somewhere nice (or nasty), but only temporarily. When Christ returns, your body is raised and reunited with your soul, and then you go off to your eternal reward (or punishment). We can see hints of this in earlier writers such as Tertullian, but it becomes fully explicit in Augustine.

On this view, "heaven" and "hell" refer not to the individual's final destination but to the interim state after death but before resurrection. Augustine believed that the soul, in this state, is granted a sort of foretaste of its final destiny, so that the souls of those who will be saved exist in a blissful state and the souls of those who will be damned exist in a painful state.

These ideas became more codified in the Middle Ages, when purgatory was also introduced (this is another temporary state between death and resurrection, but an unpleasant one where the soul is purified to make it ready to be with God for all eternity). It also became official doctrine in the fourteenth century that the souls of the saints, currently in heaven (since saints skip purgatory), are directly united to God (and therefore worth praying to).

At the reformation, many Protestants argued that the whole immortality of the soul thing, complete with the doctrines of heaven, hell, and purgatory, was just paganism that had become unfortunately introduced into Christianity. The doctrine of "soul sleep" therefore became popular, according to which there is no life after death, no heaven, and no hell - until the time when Christ returns and everyone is resurrected. This, it was felt, is a more biblical view of the matter. Martin Luther subscribed to this and so did Matthew Tyndale, who wrote:

Matthew Tyndale said:
The true faith putteth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to establish it.

So the answer to Flying Pig's question is, yes, certainly one can be a Christian without believing in heaven and hell - at least if Martin Luther counts as a Christian. Personally I think that the notion that resurrection is biblical and immortality of the soul is pagan is too simplistic, although there is truth to it. However, I also think that the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is much harder to defend rationally than the doctrine of the resurrection of the body. It seems to me more probable that God should, through his omnipotence, raise the dead at the end of time in one big miracle than that we should all have an immortal soul, with all the well-known difficulties associated with that view.

Moss seems to have taken the question to be about merely life after death, though. Can one be a Christian without believing in any kind of life after death? Well, there are certainly people who call themselves Christians who do so - Don Cupitt and the Sea of Faith people are the most obvious, but I think there are plenty of others, including many who believe in the objective existence of God and other traditional metaphysical doctrines, who still don't believe in either the immortality of the soul or the resurrection of the body. I don't see why they shouldn't be called Christians for that. They would, of course, consider the Bible's talk of "eternal life" and "resurrection" to be mythological language which expresses something more immediate and earthly. Most existentialist theologians (which is to say, most theologians of the middle part of the twentieth century) would probably adopt an interpretation along those lines. It's just part of demythologisation.

Finally, as for the fate of the damned, there is of course an ancient tradition in Christianity that divine punishment is temporary and that ultimately everyone will be saved, even those languishing in hell or in the pit of fire described in Revelation. There are plenty of arguments for this from a Christian perspective which I consider to be very good. Famous ancient universalists include Clement of Alexandria (probably), Origen (probably), Titus of Bostra, and St Gregory of Nyssa. Later, this view was largely suppressed, at least in the western church, but obviously in modern times it has become far more popular. I should think the vast majority of theologians in modern times have not subscribed to the doctrine of genuinely eternal damnation. Some of those might subscribe to the doctrines of annihilationism or conditional immortality that MagisterCultuum mentions, but I think that most probably just think that ultimately everyone will be saved - since that is what God wills, and God's will cannot be thwarted.

(Of course, hardline Reformed traditionally deny that God wills the salvation of all - early modern theologians such as Pierre Jurieu argued that God actively wants most people to be damned - but I don't think you'll find many defenders of that view today.)
 
Plotinus...you and I aren't disagreeing, at least about the Heaven part.

(which is why I put Heaven in parenthesis "Heaven" - I didn't feel like explaining all of the different views that people hold of the resurrection of the body). And obviously Arminianism and Calvinism and liberal and conservative churches today disagree a lot about the theological implications of pre-destination, free-will, election, ect...

I would disagree with you on this; however:

- Don Cupitt and the Sea of Faith people are the most obvious, but I think there are plenty of others, including many who believe in the objective existence of God and other traditional metaphysical doctrines, who still don't believe in either the immortality of the soul or the resurrection of the body. I don't see why they shouldn't be called Christians for that.

By that definition, almost anyone can call themselves a Christian that believes in God. Which is fine, people can call themselves whatever they want. However; if you disregard the Bible and scripture...what's the point? Where's the Christianity in the theology?? They believe in God, but Christianity seems to imply "Christ" in it's definition, doesn't it? And doesn't it also imply that Christ was more than just a good teacher? Because, after all, I agree with C.S. Lewis that if Christ wasn't divine, he was quite crazy.

Edit: Have you read Timothy Keller's - The Reason for God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism? If so, any thoughts on it? (if not, I encourage you to read it).
 
By that definition, almost anyone can call themselves a Christian that believes in God. Which is fine, people can call themselves whatever they want. However; if you disregard the Bible and scripture...what's the point? Where's the Christianity in the theology?? They believe in God, but Christianity seems to imply "Christ" in it's definition, doesn't it? And doesn't it also imply that Christ was more than just a good teacher? Because, after all, I agree with C.S. Lewis that if Christ wasn't divine, he was quite crazy.

I don't follow the argument. Yes, clearly being a Christian is going to involve thinking that Jesus is important (I phrased that as vaguely and widely as I could). Now that alone does not, I would say, imply that Jesus was more than just a good teacher. But I'll grant that most Christians (all right, "all", for the sake of argument) would say that he was. But that isn't the same thing as thinking that he was divine. The Arians certainly thought that Jesus was far more than just a good teacher, but they didn't think he was divine. Does that mean they weren't Christians? I can't think why it would.

And I don't see the connection of any of that to the Bible. One may think Jesus more than merely human; one may even think him divine and agree with Chalcedonian orthodoxy regarding his person in every detail; but disregard the Bible entirely, without being inconsistent. Of course, in practice there probably aren't many people with that view, but there's nothing inconsistent about it.

People have, perhaps, argued about what makes someone a Christian ever since the apostles had shouting matches about gentiles. Personally I don't really see any reason not to categorise someone who calls themselves "Christian" as a Christian. That is a sociological approach to categorisation rather than a theological one. Someone who is a Christian may hold that some of the people who call themselves Christians are wrong about various things - perhaps various very important things - and perhaps may even hold that some of these people will not be saved. But still I wouldn't see any reason, even from that standpoint, not to call them "Christians" at all. Of course since I'm not a Christian I certainly don't see any such reason. I don't think one can pin down the definition of "Christian" to any particular doctrine or set of doctrines, certainly not ones as tendentious as the divinity of Christ or the authority of the Bible; attempts to make these definitional of Christianity are ultimately just partisan attempts to make one group of Christians "proper" Christians and the rest not "proper".

Part of the reason for that is that the same doctrines, or at least the same words, mean very different things to different people. The vast majority of Christians today affirm the faith expressed in the Nicene Creed on a regular basis, and they all do so quite sincerely, but believe me, they do not all interpret it as meaning the same thing.

As for C.S. Lewis' argument, there are philosophical theologians today who defend it. But personally I think it is a terrible argument. Not just one but both of its major premises are arguably false and at the very least uncertain, so it is valueless in proving its conclusion, as far as I can see.

Edit: Have you read Timothy Keller's - The Reason for God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism? If so, any thoughts on it? (if not, I encourage you to read it).

I haven't read it. I've just had a look at his website and read the introduction though. It seems like an intelligent and very fair-minded approach. He is surely right that many criticisms of various doctrines are based on prejudices or dogmas which should also be examined. I also like his insistence on mutual understanding and rational debate. It sounds from his introduction that he has quite a narrow understanding of what Christianity itself is, though. It always worries me when authors (generally evangelicals of a more or less conservative nature) use words like "orthodox" or "historic" to refer to doctrines associated with their own brand of Christianity - that again is partisanship. There is nothing wrong with arguing for such doctrines or defending them, but don't misrepresent them.
 
I think you misrepresent Lewis' argument if we're talking about the "mad, bad or God" trilemma. AFAIK it was supposed to be an answer to the "Jesus was a hippie and a great moral teacher" types, not an independent argument.
 
I'm not sure what you mean. Certainly Lewis presented it as a response to those who argued that Jesus was a good man but nothing more - but it's supposed to prove that he wasn't just a good man and nothing more. But I'm not convinced by his reasoning.
 
Just for reference, here's the Lewis quote (From Mere Christianity):

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the son of God: or else a madman or something worse.
 
I'm not sure what you mean. Certainly Lewis presented it as a response to those who argued that Jesus was a good man but nothing more - but it's supposed to prove that he wasn't just a good man and nothing more. But I'm not convinced by his reasoning.

Yeah, it's pretty weak. The trilemma is as follows:

(P): Jesus claimed to be God.

(Q): One of the following must be true.

1. Lunatic: Jesus was not God, but believed that he was.
2. Liar: Jesus did not believe he was God, but spoke as if he did.
3. Lord: Jesus is God.

(C): If not God, Jesus is either not great or not moral.

The problem with this is that it assumes that Jesus did speak as if he was God. It can simply be that the statements by Jesus recorded in the Gospels are being misinterpreted, and do not constitute claims to divinity. Or it can be that the historicity of these claims to divinity are false. Some of the statements certainly could have been invented by the authors of the NT, seeking to glorify Jesus. It's a false trilemma.
 
You also can say that while Jesus did have a delusion in his divinity, the moral norms he preached were sound.
 
Well, first, the Gospels don't represent Jesus as going about claiming to be God. In fact, clear affirmations of Jesus' divinity are hard to find in the Gospels, and they are all a bit ambiguous to some degree. Those who argue that, in the Gospels, Jesus claims to be God, generally argue along the lines that Jesus did or said things that effectively or implicitly represented a claim to divinity. But any argument along those lines is going to be weakened simply by the fact that, at the very least, we cannot be sure what these sayings or actions would have meant to Jesus and his listeners.

Apart from all this, of course, the assumption that Jesus really said and did all the things attributed to him in the Gospels is rather a large assumption, and probably not one that anyone not already committed to belief in Jesus' divinity will be prepared to make.

Now I know that Stephen Davis, at least, has written on this issue and argued that even the bits of the Gospels which most critics accept as preserving authentic sayings of Jesus represent implicit claims to divinity. But I think this is a weak argument, for two reasons. The first is the one I gave above, that we can't be sure that these sayings or whatever really would have carried such overtones. And the second is that it still assumes that those sayings are authentic. But there's no way anyone could be sure of that. If most critics do not dispute the authenticity of Saying A, that does not mean that Saying A is authentic - it just means we have no particular reason to suppose that it is not. Of course there can be degrees of probability here, and there are perhaps some sayings or actions attributed to Jesus which are very probably authentic, but even then we can never be sure that we have the precise form of words.

However, besides all this, I think the argument really falls down on its major premise, not its minor. No matter how much we may argue about whether Jesus claimed to be divine or not, I don't see any reason to suppose that, if he made such a claim, he must have been either insane or actually divine. To suppose this is to transfer the mindset of modern, western, middle-class people to first-century Palestine. How do we know that anyone sincerely but mistakenly claiming divinity, in that society, must have been mad? Take the Dalai Lama. He believes himself to be not only a reincarnation of all his predecessors but an incarnation of the bodhisattva Avalokitesvara. If the person living next door to me made such a claim I'd probably think him mad, but that's because such a claim would be so out of kilter with how people in our society think. For people from the Dalai Lama's society it is not, and indeed the Dalai Lama is obviously neither mad nor an arrogant fraud. Could we therefore frame a parallel version of Lewis' "trilemma" to "prove" that the Dalai Lama really is the bodhisattva Avalokitesvara? No, because for someone from his background, to claim sincerely to be the bodhisattva Avalokitesvara is perfectly consistent with being sane (irrespective of whether the claim is true or not). How can we know that something like this doesn't apply to first-century Palestine?

It's important to bear in mind that the claim that this argument is supposed to be establishing - that Jesus really was God - is quite a startling and, on the face of it, improbable claim. You need very good and well supported premises to support a conclusion with such intrinsic improbability. But the "trilemma" does not have very well supported premises - on the contrary, it has premises which are both controversial and far from evidently true, and both of them could well be simply false. That, in my view, makes it a bad argument.
 
Well, first, the Gospels don't represent Jesus as going about claiming to be God. In fact, clear affirmations of Jesus' divinity are hard to find in the Gospels, and they are all a bit ambiguous to some degree. Those who argue that, in the Gospels, Jesus claims to be God, generally argue along the lines that Jesus did or said things that effectively or implicitly represented a claim to divinity. But any argument along those lines is going to be weakened simply by the fact that, at the very least, we cannot be sure what these sayings or actions would have meant to Jesus and his listeners.

I'm curious... the infamous line: "Forgive them father, for they don't know what they do" (quoting from memory, so it may be slightly inaccurate).. does that not appear in the Bible then?

BTW your thoughts on the Dalai Lama are spot on. I don't usually post in this thread - but I tend to read it often, for interesting insights like that.
 
I'm curious... the infamous line: "Forgive them father, for they don't know what they do" (quoting from memory, so it may be slightly inaccurate).. does that not appear in the Bible then?

Certainly it does! But why would that be a claim to divinity? He's saying that the soldiers executing him don't realise that they are carrying out a perversion of justice, and he's asking God to forgive them. Nothing divine about that, admirable though it may be. At least, that's a perfectly reasonable interpretation.
 
Well, first, the Gospels don't represent Jesus as going about claiming to be God. In fact, clear affirmations of Jesus' divinity are hard to find in the Gospels, and they are all a bit ambiguous to some degree. Those who argue that, in the Gospels, Jesus claims to be God, generally argue along the lines that Jesus did or said things that effectively or implicitly represented a claim to divinity. But any argument along those lines is going to be weakened simply by the fact that, at the very least, we cannot be sure what these sayings or actions would have meant to Jesus and his listeners. [...]

(I've shortened the quote a bit for reasons of clarity.) It seems quite obvious that Jesus - a Jew, and a zealous one at that - could not, in all probability, claim to be God; that would be utter blasphemy in Jewish eyes. (And quite rightly so, in accordance with the First Commandment.) It is only in early Christianity - that is, when Judaism and Christianity develop in alternate directions - that the claim that Jesus be God does arise. Interestingly, this had then not yethappened when the gospels and Paul's letters were being written down. (In other words, the doctrine of Jesus' divinity had not yet been developed or, more accurately, had not yet become dominant.) Even when the doctrine of Jesus' divinity had developed, it was not uncontested, to say the least, possibly for precisely this reason. I reckon it would take the doctrine of the Holy Trinity (that there is one God, but three persons) to reasonably present the case of Jesus' divinity. I suppose that is a relic of Christianity's Judaic roots still extant today - just as the entire 'Old Testament' is, which makes up the bulk of the bible.

At any rate, from the gospels it would appear that Jesus claimed to be the Messiah (i.e. Christ, the Saviour) - and even this emerged only gradually, judging from his delivered teachings as per the gospel texts.
 
I guess my question got lost a couple of pages ago. I'd like to know more about why god created the world. If any of you could just tell me the name of this field in theology, I'd be happy to do some searching by myself. Thank you very much.
 
Certainly it does! But why would that be a claim to divinity? He's saying that the soldiers executing him don't realise that they are carrying out a perversion of justice, and he's asking God to forgive them. Nothing divine about that, admirable though it may be. At least, that's a perfectly reasonable interpretation.

Yeah, that makes sense. So there's nowhere in the Bible where it is explicitly stated that Jesus is the son of God, then?

So where did this notion come from?
 
Plotinus has frequently said that while it does call him the Son of God (or just The Son), that at the time it was written that would be a normal way to refer to any righteous man. Neither then nor today do Jews have a problem with the idea that "we are all God's children." Also "son of ___" in the ancient world could often also mean a follower of someone rather than an actual physical descendant. (Iirc, at least one place in the Aeneid refers to all the Trojan escaping to Italy as Aeneas's sons (using the actual word for son, if you count the adjective typically translated as son of Aeneas then it probably calls them that hundreds of times), even though it makes it clear that only Iulus was his physical progeny.)
 
John 8 is the first I could call up when quickly leafing through wherein Jesus seems to claim divinity or at least very many of its trappings: I am from above, I am not of this world, you shall know I am the Son of Man when I am uplifted/exalted, my Father sent me, the Father is with me, I am with the Father, if God were your Father you would love Me, he who is of God hears God's words but you're not listening to me so you're not of God, Abraham rejoiced to see My day, before Abraham was I AM...

And what's with that "Son of Man" prophecy from Daniel that keeps appearing in the Gospels, anyway?
 
I'd refer back to the previous post. (The Christian concept of Son of God has become quite distinctive from the Judaic concept of Son of Man over time. Also, taking sample texts - especially from John, the last of the gospels - is hazardous at best as concerns any personal claim of Jesus to divinity. The gospels weren't intended as historical documents - which they are regardless -, but as propaganda fides; no literal quotes of Jesus can be attested directly and what biblical quotes may be judged in accordance to Jesus' own teachings cannot be directly inferred from the NT without proper linguistic/philological research - which has been conducted, and to an extent still is being conducted. I'm sure Plotinus can explain all this in quite more detail.)
 
Yeah, that makes sense. So there's nowhere in the Bible where it is explicitly stated that Jesus is the son of God, then?

So where did this notion come from?

So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven... (Matthew 10:32)

Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me. (Matthew 10:40)

Those are just a couple of examples. Does Christ specifically say, I am the son of God? No (although John's gospel is certainly the one that tries to make that point the most). However, it can certainly be implied that Christ is Lord and has an intimate relationship with God since he is saying that whoever receives me receives the one who sent me.

Edit: There are also his followers assertions - Matthew 16:16 - Peter calls Jesus, Christ, son of the living God. And the demons fell down before him calling him the son of God as well...
 
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