[RD] Ask a Theologian V

[Mouthwash]

I can't compete with you, Plotty.

 

[Borachio]

Is it a competition?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I can't compete with you, Plotty.

Genius... anyway somewhat I think he may be slightly off with his atheism unlike the real life Plotty:

His metaphysical writings have inspired centuries of Pagan, Christian, Jewish, Islamic and Gnostic metaphysicians and mystics

Is it a competition?

Yes and no. Superficialy everything is a competition in one way or other but becouse of the essential oneness there is actually no one to compete with...

 

[Mouthwash]

Is it a competition?

We were arguing, weren't we?

Anyway, I forgot to ask: What do you think of the thesis that the Jewish exile was invented by early Christian to convince Jews that they had been punished for rejecting Christianity? Do you think that it's realistic?

 

[Agent327]

I would say that whoever wrote that thesis was unaware of the Judaic tradition of the diaspora. It originally referred to the deportation following the Assyrian conquest of Israel/Juda in 722 BCE, well before anyone had heard of Christianity.

 

[Mouthwash]

I would say that whoever wrote that thesis was unaware of the Judaic tradition of the diaspora. It originally referred to the deportation following the Assyrian conquest of Israel/Juda in 722 BCE, well before anyone had heard of Christianity.

So? I'm asking if Christians created a new exile story in order to convince Jews to convert.

 

[Borachio]

We were arguing, weren't we?

Some people might consider it a discussion in an attempt to determine the truth of an issue. Without a winner or loser.

Since, amongst other things, all "truths" are only provisional.

But you may call it an argument if you wish.

 

[Kyriakos]

So? I'm asking if Christians created a new exile story in order to convince Jews to convert.

I'm sure the early century christians cared massively if the jews would convert or not. I mean they almost did not change the state religion to christianity, cause it was not yet certain what stance the people of judea would take

 

[Agent327]

So? I'm asking if Christians created a new exile story in order to convince Jews to convert.

Never having heard of such a thesis, I'll leave that to Plotinus.

 

[Plotinus]

We were arguing, weren't we?

I didn't think we were, but I suppose it's nice that I can win an argument without even realising I'm having one.

Anyway, I forgot to ask: What do you think of the thesis that the Jewish exile was invented by early Christian to convince Jews that they had been punished for rejecting Christianity? Do you think that it's realistic?

I've never heard of this claim. If by "the Jewish exile" you mean the exile to Babylon, such a claim would be absurd, because the Exile is described in the Jewish scriptures which predate Christianity. If by "the Jewish exile" you mean the expulsion of Jews from the Holy Land by the Romans in the wake of the Jewish wars, I have certainly heard the theory that this was something of a myth (to a greater or lesser extent), but if so, it was a Jewish myth, not a Christian one. And it would seem on the face of it unlikely that Christians could convince Jews of false beliefs about what was happening to the Jews right then. I don't know what early Christian texts could be cited to support this theory, though I would certainly be interested.

 

[Mouthwash]

I've never heard of this claim. If by "the Jewish exile" you mean the exile to Babylon, such a claim would be absurd, because the Exile is described in the Jewish scriptures which predate Christianity. If by "the Jewish exile" you mean the expulsion of Jews from the Holy Land by the Romans in the wake of the Jewish wars, I have certainly heard the theory that this was something of a myth (to a greater or lesser extent), but if so, it was a Jewish myth, not a Christian one. And it would seem on the face of it unlikely that Christians could convince Jews of false beliefs about what was happening to the Jews right then. I don't know what early Christian texts could be cited to support this theory, though I would certainly be interested.

Basically, the idea is that the Jews of Europe weren't really descendants of the ancient Judeans, but converts (this is usually cited as an anti-Semitic theory, but there has been serious consideration of it). The Christians then told these Jews that they were the direct descendants of the exiled Judeans who had been punished for rejecting the true Messiah, but in reality there was no mass expulsion of Jews from the Levant at all.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think you may be referring to the Khazars, a Turkic tribe whose leaders did indeed convert to Judaism in the 8th century. It does not seem that even a plurality of the tribe as a whole was ever Jewish though, and by the end of the 10th century they had almost all converted to Islam instead.

I vaguely recall reading about one study which found that less than 1% of European Jews have the genetic markers which they would have if they were of descended from the Khazars or any other Turkic group. They instead share the genetic markers with other Semitic peoples like Arabs.

 

[timtofly]

On a related note. Did any of the early theologians actually rewrite history?

 

[Agent327]

I think you may be referring to the Khazars, a Turkic tribe whose leaders did indeed convert to Judaism in the 8th century. It does not seem that even a plurality of the tribe as a whole was ever Jewish though, and by the end of the 10th century they had almost all converted to Islam instead.

I vaguely recall reading about one study which found that less than 1% of European Jews have the genetic markers which they would have if they were of descended from the Khazars or any other Turkic group. They instead share the genetic markers with other Semitic peoples like Arabs.

If the Khazars converted to Judaism that would have little effect on genetics; and the same obviously goes true with any conversion. The presence of Judaism all over Europe and in Africa, Jemen etc can't possibly be the result of emigration alone (Ethiopian Jews, for instance, are black). Already in Roman times Judaic communities could be found throughout the empire. To explain such a huge population dispersal/growth it has been assumed that Jewish birth rates were substantially higher than average (based on what? Were death rates also substantially lower?); but even assuming this does not account for the spread of Judaism over such a wide area. One might assume that this is related to the diaspora myth, which basically says that Judaism was uprooted from Israel and dispersed over the four corners of the earth. But Judaism wasn't uprooted, nor was the population of the area; there are no records to support that idea.

Basically, the idea is that the Jews of Europe weren't really descendants of the ancient Judeans, but converts (this is usually cited as an anti-Semitic theory, but there has been serious consideration of it). The Christians then told these Jews that they were the direct descendants of the exiled Judeans who had been punished for rejecting the true Messiah, but in reality there was no mass expulsion of Jews from the Levant at all.

The latter would be in accordance with several factors, such as the Assyrians deporting elites (not entire populations, if only because that would be beyond anyone's means), the Babylonian exile community was centered in Babylon (the city, not the countryside), the fact that the Jewish Wars did not lead to a mass expulsion of the local population (there are no records to this effect, instead Jerusalem being banned for a limited period of years), mass conversion of inhabitants following Islamic conquest ('mass' immigration by Arabs couldn't possibly have accounted for this, if only because Arabia did not contain any 'masses'; even today the peninsula is still thinly populated), Judaic proselytizing (which was common in ancient times). Most importantly, all through the diaspora there remained a Jewish community in Israel.

One might think of the Euopean 'peoples movements', which was accepted knowledge til at least the mid 20th century; we now know that no such 'peoples movements' occurred. Mass immigration/emigration are certainly rare in history, especially among such sedentary populations as constituted most civilizations, dependent as they were on agriculture. (A clear example can be found with the Irish who emigrated en masse to the US following potato disease-related famine. But this occurred in a time when mass transportation was available.)

On the face of it, what you seem to be describing is a Jewish/Judaic myth, rather than a Christian/antisemitic one (although there are plenty of those, to be sure).

 

[timtofly]

I am not sure the means has anything to do with the end result does it?

There are Jews and offspring in most parts of the world and up until 1945 there was no land that was considered a Jewish "Nation". The Romans destroyed that land and other people have inhabited it and it has been part of "foreign" control up until 1945.

It does not seem to matter how it happened, other than it seems that if there was a Jewish "nation" before the Assyrians and Babylonians and later the Romans sacked it there was an exodus that did happen. It was at the most a loosely held kingdom.

The Jews did not attempt to gain control of any other land to make a nation, they just blended in and lived for the most part peaceably. They did become citizens of other nations and acted like normal citizens and even participated in all aspect of local society including military service. For all intents and purposes they were a disbanded nation.

 

[Plotinus]

People don't usually uproot themselves en masse from an area and settle elsewhere. The notion that after the Jewish wars the Romans forced all the Jews out of Palestine and wholly replaced them with people brought in from elsewhere seems, on the face of it, unlikely. I suppose that large-scale migrations did happen in late antiquity - for example, people such as the Vandals and the Ostrogoths moving en masse from one area to another - and some were forced, such as the settlement by the Sassanids of Roman Christians in the Middle East and beyond; but these are exceptions to the rule.

As for the supposed explanations on the part of Christians that Mouthwash is talking about, I just don't know what he's referring to. When are we talking about here?

 

[madviking]

edit: wrong thread

 

[timtofly]

People tend to overlook that between the Babylonian and Roman control, there was the Greek influence. The Jews had a bittersweet relationship with them, that was different than the Roman one. There seems to have been extensive Jewish trade and settlement in other parts of the world at that time. While the Jews did have somewhat of a homeland, they learned how to settle and survive in other places as well. Most of this died with the dissolution of the Roman Empire and the disruption of loosing their homeland.

 

[Mouthwash]

People don't usually uproot themselves en masse from an area and settle elsewhere. The notion that after the Jewish wars the Romans forced all the Jews out of Palestine and wholly replaced them with people brought in from elsewhere seems, on the face of it, unlikely. I suppose that large-scale migrations did happen in late antiquity - for example, people such as the Vandals and the Ostrogoths moving en masse from one area to another - and some were forced, such as the settlement by the Sassanids of Roman Christians in the Middle East and beyond; but these are exceptions to the rule.

Of course not. The story goes that only about half (or something) of the Jews were uprooted and sold as slaves. This was to neutralize the possibility of revolt. The Romans weren't trying to destroy Judaism, they were trying to end it as a national ideology. The remaining Jews in Palestine were largely slaughtered or assimilated by invaders over the next millennium.

As for the supposed explanations on the part of Christians that Mouthwash is talking about, I just don't know what he's referring to. When are we talking about here?

I'm not really sure. Sometime in the Early Middle Ages (800-1000 AD).

 

[Agent327]

People don't usually uproot themselves en masse from an area and settle elsewhere. The notion that after the Jewish wars the Romans forced all the Jews out of Palestine and wholly replaced them with people brought in from elsewhere seems, on the face of it, unlikely. I suppose that large-scale migrations did happen in late antiquity - for example, people such as the Vandals and the Ostrogoths moving en masse from one area to another - and some were forced, such as the settlement by the Sassanids of Roman Christians in the Middle East and beyond; but these are exceptions to the rule.

The Vandals ultimately moved from Spain to North Africa: do you have any idea what amount of ships that would have taken if they were a people? And even assuming this was a 'mass movement', they subsequently completely disappeared from history. However, if we assume that the total number of Vandals was somewhere in the range of 10-30,000 the mystery is - for the most part - resolved.

Of course not. The story goes that only about half (or something) of the Jews were uprooted and sold as slaves. This was to neutralize the possibility of revolt. The Romans weren't trying to destroy Judaism, they were trying to end it as a national ideology. The remaining Jews in Palestine were largely slaughtered or assimilated by invaders over the next millennium.

That's interesting, considering that Jewish communities were still present in the 19th century. I have no idea on what you are basing this 'mass slaughter' by invasions; not on historical record in any case.

With all this mythology I forgot to ask my question:

Plotinus, you once mentioned that Luther was very anti-Paul. Could you five some examples of that attitude?