[RD] Ask a Theologian V

Not to mention that antisemitism is quite a bit older than nationalism. The first already appears in the NT.

What about book of Esther?

And Haman said unto king Ahasuerus, There is a certain people scattered abroad and dispersed among the people in all the provinces of thy kingdom; and their laws are diverse from all people; neither keep they the king's laws: therefore it is not for the king's profit to suffer them. If it please the king, let it be written that they may be destroyed:
 
So a while back you told me that Jonathan Edwards gets a bad reputation based on "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" and that his overall theological tone is quite joyful and focused on nature. What are some notable works of his that fall more into that category?

You might start by looking at The Nature of True Virtue or The End For Which God Created the World.

Care to elaborate based on the 'Let his blood come down upon us and our children' bit? Because that has been a very fruitful source of antisemitism right until the 20th century.

It certainly has, but remember that that text was written by someone who either was Jewish himself, by at least some definition, or was closely associated with many people who were. So it's not really antisemitism in the modern, racial sense - it's targeting Jews in the sense of people who follow the Jewish religion and reject Christianity, and the "children" are the Jews in Matthew's own time who reject Christianity, who are also criticised in the form of the Pharisees elsewhere in the same Gospel.

Is this plausible?

No.

I've heard some people say that we reside in the mind of God as if reality is a figment of the Lord's imagination. Is that taken seriously in Christian traditions or by any theologians?

Malebranche said something a bit like this, or at least it sounded a bit like this, and of course so did Berkeley. I don't know of anyone who takes it seriously today, though. A problem with a view like this, from the viewpoint of Christian orthodoxy, is that it would seem to collapse the distinction between the Creator and the creation. You're meant to have God on the one hand and the stuff he's created on the other - otherwise you have something like pantheism. But if the world is within God then you lose that idea.
 
I'm unsure whether this has been asked before, but in Genesis it is mentioned that humans are made by "His image and likeness" (not literal translation, might be a bit off). Does that mean God is some kind of a human which reached deityhood or something?
 
It certainly has, but remember that that text was written by someone who either was Jewish himself, by at least some definition, or was closely associated with many people who were. So it's not really antisemitism in the modern, racial sense - it's targeting Jews in the sense of people who follow the Jewish religion and reject Christianity, and the "children" are the Jews in Matthew's own time who reject Christianity, who are also criticised in the form of the Pharisees elsewhere in the same Gospel.

AFAIK the only ones who use antisemitism in a racial sense are (neo-)Nazis. Jews are not a race.
 
What do you think of Antoine Arnault? Would you consider him a Jansenist?
 
OK, sorry. Have you answered this thing before?
Yes he has, many times. From the index on the first page:
There are brief references to Jesus in non-Christian sources, such as Suetonius and Josephus, but these tell us nothing except that these authors believed him to have existed. Really the main sources are the Christian ones, primarily the Gospels. And the major reason to suppose that these are not purely fictional is that form criticism and redaction criticism have shown how the authors have manipulated their sources to fit their own ends, and how the sources that they used themselves had histories of being shaped by the oral tradition. Often this shows how the writers wanted to minimise certain elements of the tradition. A good example is who to blame for Jesus' death. The later the text, the greater the tendency to blame the Jews and exonerate Pilate. If you compare the canonical Gospels, you'll see that Mark has Jesus condemned by the priests, then taken before Pilate, who seems a bit reluctant to execute Jesus, offering instead to release Barabbas instead, but is quickly convinced by the crowd. The later Matthew has the same account but adds in the notorious verse where the crowd say that the blame for his death should be upon their heads and those of their children. In Luke, Pilate insists repeatedly that Jesus is innocent, and states that he plans to whip him and release him, but he is eventually forced to change his mind. In John, Pilate also states that he thinks that Jesus is innocent and tries to release him, but is eventually convinced by "the Jews" who tell him that if he doesn't execute Jesus he will be guilty of treason. And in the apocryphal "Acts of Pilate", Pilate is a sort of hero, who is convinced not only of Jesus' innocence but of his divinity, but somehow still is forced to execute him. Clearly, as time went on and the Christians were involved in ever bitterer disputes with the Jews - and as their own fidelity to the Roman authorities were questioned - they wanted to stress that Jesus has been executed primarily at the behest of the Jewish authorities. The fact that the founder of their religion had been crucified - a Roman punishment - by a Roman prefect was an embarrassment for them, given that they wanted to stress their obedience to Roman law (see Romans 13, for example). This explains why the Gospel writers try to spin the material in this way. But it is striking, at the same time, how they don't change what were presumably the main facts of the case - in their narratives, Jesus still is crucified, and it is done on Pilate's orders. So although they were happy to modify the material in many ways to suit their purposes, they were more conservative than one might think.

So to put it briefly, if the Christians had invented Jesus, he would have been rather different from the picture presented by the Gospels. In this example, he would surely have been stoned rather than crucified, since then the Christians could have easily placed the blame upon the Jews and stressed their own obedience to Rome. In fact, since stoning people to death was illegal, they could have pointed out that the Jews were the ones breaking the law, not Jesus.

Scholars often use the "principle of dissimilarity" as a criterion for establishing that certain sayings attributed to Jesus are authentic. The idea is that if any saying is unknown in earlier sources (such as the Old Testament, and major Jewish teachers immediately before Jesus), and is inconsistent with things that the early Christians believed, then it must be authentic. Because the early Christians wouldn't have attributed to Jesus sayings that they didn't believe themselves. Of course, this is a very strict criterion. It's not meant to say that only the material that meets it is authentic: that would be ridiculous, since no doubt Jesus said many things that agreed with his predecessors, and surely the early Christians believed many of the same things as Jesus, or they wouldn't have been Christians at all. The point is that sayings that meet this criterion are ones that we can be sure, at least, are authentic. And the fact that such material exists points very clearly to its not having been invented by the early church.
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http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5752383&postcount=647
 
I read that. Yes, it proves that Jesus wasn't invented by the Gospels, but there are plenty of other ways a flesh-and-blood Jewish messiah would have been imagined into existence. It's not like he's even the last; there have been various 'messiahs' throughout history.
 
Well, there are 2 questions here. And if the article that was linked in the post above is indicative of the guy's argument, he's conflating them.

1. Was there a historical person, Jesus of Nazareth, whose teachings and life in any way formed the basis for Christianity?

and

2. Was this Jesus of Nazareth really a miracle worker/messiah/savior and did he really say all the things attributed to him?
 
I read that. Yes, it proves that Jesus wasn't invented by the Gospels, but there are plenty of other ways a flesh-and-blood Jewish messiah would have been imagined into existence. It's not like he's even the last; there have been various 'messiahs' throughout history.

Logical flaw: the messiahs you mention also existed. Except that they turned out to be not the Messiah. So you're trying to make a case that Jesus might be fictional by pointing to other existing messiahs. That makes no sense, except to the the point that Jesus would have been one of these (existing) messiahs.

Also, as Plotinus clearly points out, all the gospel writers kept 2 things in their variations: the crucifying and the order by Pilate. Any of which they could easily have changed if Jesus were fictional. The fact that none of the gospel writers (canonical or otherwise) did is a clear indication that the core of the story is true.

Well, there are 2 questions here. And if the article that was linked in the post above is indicative of the guy's argument, he's conflating them.

1. Was there a historical person, Jesus of Nazareth, whose teachings and life in any way formed the basis for Christianity?

and

2. Was this Jesus of Nazareth really a miracle worker/messiah/savior and did he really say all the things attributed to him?

The second is really irrelevant (they form part of the story variations), while the first is absolutely true (both parts).
 
I'm unsure whether this has been asked before, but in Genesis it is mentioned that humans are made by "His image and likeness" (not literal translation, might be a bit off). Does that mean God is some kind of a human which reached deityhood or something?

I'm sure that's not the intention of that passage, but precisely what it would have meant to the original writer, I don't know. I will try to find out.

AFAIK the only ones who use antisemitism in a racial sense are (neo-)Nazis. Jews are not a race.

I suppose I agree with you - but whatever it is that modern antisemitism is typically about, I don't think it's typically a religious thing, i.e. discrimination against Jews because of their religion. If it were then non-religious Jews wouldn't face any antisemitism, but clearly they do.

What do you think of Antoine Arnault? Would you consider him a Jansenist?

I like Arnauld - one of the great multitalented intellects of the seventeenth century. He was an extremely able philosopher although he didn't really understand Malebranche. As for whether he was a Jansenist, it probably depends on what you mean by "Jansenist". He certainly defended Jansen, but he did so by arguing that Jansen had never held the views that the Vatican attributed to him - not by defending those views themselves. Still, this was the line other Jansenists took. So I don't see any reason to say that Arnauld wasn't a Jansenist. I don't think there was anyone more Jansenist than him other than Jansen himself - and he was dead before the whole thing took off anyway.

It's a shame that when Leibniz tried to get Arnauld's feedback on his Discourse on Metaphysics he only sent him the chapter titles and not the actual text, because Arnauld could have given him far better comments if he'd seen the whole thing. As it is, the Leibniz-Arnauld correspondence led to some important pieces of writing from Leibniz, but the Arnauld side of it is mostly baffled incomprehension, which was a bit of a waste.

OK, sorry. Have you answered this thing before?

As the others have pointed out, yes, I've addressed the claim that Jesus didn't exist multiple times both on these threads and elsewhere on the forums.

I read that. Yes, it proves that Jesus wasn't invented by the Gospels, but there are plenty of other ways a flesh-and-blood Jewish messiah would have been imagined into existence. It's not like he's even the last; there have been various 'messiahs' throughout history.

I don't really understand what you're suggesting here. In what other ways could Jesus be fictional if not through being invented by the writers of the Gospels or their sources?

Wouldn't that be panentheism?

Perhaps, but I think the distinction between them is pretty hazy at best.
 
Do followers of Jansen (I note Jansenist is fairly politically incorrect since it was coined by the Pope to attack followers of Jansen) believe in double predistination like Calvinists, or only in irresistable grace? Or is there perhaps a conflict among Jansen's followers?

Perhaps, but I think the distinction between them is pretty hazy at best.

AFAIK, Panentheism is belief that god is the universe yet at the same time is more. This is what makes it distinct from pantheism. But maybe I missed a point.
 
I don't really understand what you're suggesting here. In what other ways could Jesus be fictional if not through being invented by the writers of the Gospels or their sources?

Their sources could have invented it. It could be a confused mishmash of events, which, upon being collected into one volume, was written down by the Gospels. Roman records, Jewish Messianism, etc could have contributed. So while it may be possible that Jesus existed, the fact that the Gospels don't appear to have invented him isn't proof that he existed.
 
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It seems to me you are simply convinced Jesus didn't exist. There basically is no arguing against conviction.
 
It seems to me you are simply convinced Jesus didn't exist. There basically is no arguing against conviction.

It seems to me that criticizing the standard of proof used in New Testament scholarship and rejecting the existence of Jesus isn't the same thing.
 
Do followers of Jansen (I note Jansenist is fairly politically incorrect since it was coined by the Pope to attack followers of Jansen) believe in double predistination like Calvinists, or only in irresistable grace? Or is there perhaps a conflict among Jansen's followers?

I just don't know enough about Jansenism to say, I'm afraid. I will say, though, that I personally cannot see a difference between double predestination and irresistible grace. If God has the ability to ensure that some people are, irresistibly, saved, and if he uses this ability at all, then he's deciding which people will be saved and which won't. Which as far as I can tell simply is double predestination. A world in which irresistible grace exists but double predestination is not true seems to me to be inconsistent.

AFAIK, Panentheism is belief that god is the universe yet at the same time is more. This is what makes it distinct from pantheism. But maybe I missed a point.

The problem is, people define these things differently. Some people who identify as pantheists define "pantheism" precisely as you've just defined "panentheism". Both seem to me to assert that there is nothing that isn't divine, which seems to me to be the essence of pantheism, whether one thinks that there's more to the divine than just the physical universe or not.

Their sources could have invented it. It could be a confused mishmash of events, which, upon being collected into one volume, was written down by the Gospels. Roman records, Jewish Messianism, anything could have contributed. So while it may be possible that Jesus existed, the fact that the Gospels don't appear to have invented him isn't proof that he existed.

Once you start speculating like this anything goes. You can't prove that Jesus existed any more than you can prove that almost anyone else in history existed, but it's a question of what's reasonable. If you rule out deliberate fraud on the part of the authors of the only sources we've got, what's the point of speculating about other kinds of fraud on the part of hypothetical sources that we haven't got?

Of course there was Jewish Messianism at the time, but that's reason for thinking that charismatic figures might be hailed as the Messiah when in fact they weren't. And indeed there are a number of examples of this kind of thing happening in the first century. But this isn't a reason for thinking that such a person was completely made up. I don't know of any examples like that. As for "Roman records", I don't know what you mean by that. What sort of records? How would the Christians have got their hands on them? How could such records have formed the basis for inventing a person altogether?

It seems to me, as a rule, that folk memory is capable of embellishing the truth about people, and often quite dramatically and quite quickly. But it's far less easy to invent a person altogether, at least not nearly so quickly. Obviously there are examples of widely-believed-in people who probably didn't really exist, such as King Arthur, who was generally accepted as a historical figure in the late Middle Ages and early Renaissance (Henry VII called his eldest son "Arthur" in a deliberate attempt to legitimise his own house). But (a) even there it's possible that Arthur really was originally a real person, just about, and (b) much more importantly, this was many centuries later. Something similar might be said about Ossian, the supposed author of the epic cycle "collected" by James MacPherson in the eighteenth century (he actually wrote it himself on the basis of some oral traditions); in reality there was no Ossian. But here again there was a huge gulf of time between the supposed historical figure and the present, and there were no details given of his life, only his supposed authorship of certain texts.

Are there any examples of cases like Christianity and the Gospels, where a lot of specific information is given about somebody who lived just a few decades earlier and where that person did not in fact exist at all? I can't think of any.

The fact is that the historical sources, and the standards of proof applied to them by scholars, in the case of Jesus are comparable to those associated with many other characters from antiquity and indeed the Middle Ages, yet no-one seriously doubts the existence of (say) Socrates, Honi the Circle Drawer, or St Francis of Assisi. Only because it's Jesus do people insist on stronger proof and invent speculations about how he might be fictional. The onus is on them to explain why Jesus should be treated differently from other historical figures in requiring such stronger evidence.
 
I just don't know enough about Jansenism to say, I'm afraid. I will say, though, that I personally cannot see a difference between double predestination and irresistible grace.

Well, double predestination means that those god not intended to save are intended to be damned. Irresistable grace only means that those intended to be saved are definitely going to be saved, which may be combined with double predistination, or just stand alone, in which case people who are intended to be saved will be saved but those that aren't still have a free choice whether to be saved or not.
 
Well, double predestination means that those god not intended to save are intended to be damned. Irresistable grace only means that those intended to be saved are definitely going to be saved, which may be combined with double predistination, or just stand alone, in which case people who are intended to be saved will be saved but those that aren't still have a free choice whether to be saved or not.

I suppose that makes sense if you think it's possible to be saved without irresistible grace. If that's so, then God could decide to save some people via irresistible grace and leave it to others to sort out their own salvation or not, as they see fit. But has anyone actually held this? Surely people who believe in irresistible grace generally think that that's the only way to salvation, don't they? In which case, if God decides to bestow it on some people, he is in so doing also deciding not to bestow it on others, which means he's predestining some people to salvation and others to damnation.
 
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