Ask Iranians

[Tee Kay]

Leader got thrown out in an uprising =/= bad leader

He did made some mistakes, eg. SAVAK and being ignorant of public opinion.

 

[bloh]

When did Mossadegh want to close Parliament? That is untrue.

Untrue?

And that is not all - it was a quick search. Of course he did a lot of other bad things and tried multiple times to shutdown the parliament and other democratic stuff the Shah had established.

Also, when Mossadegh tried to nationalize the oil industry from the British, the Shah hated him so much he wanted him killed (privately, of course). Mossadegh was the hero of the Third World in tackling British imperialism.

Tried? He was a bad politician. He should of known that Iran did not have the expertise nor the military power or anything similiar to stand against the powerful western nations and deal with the oil themselves. It's very simple. Where were you or your family at that time starting demonstrations against countries like UK doing this to other nations? How come you have just started to do stuff now?

The treasury became empty, and the sales of Iran's oil did not equal the revenues of 1949

The oil was later nationalized in a correct way by the Shah but we can all say what happened later - the 1979 "revolution". A new speech by the Shah was released a few weeks ago where he says that under no circumstances will he renew the 25-year old oil contract with the British which would expire in 1979. Whoop, guess what happened?

The Shah wanted him killed? Haha. You forgot that it was the Shah that made sure he did not get executed even though he was supposed to be.

Mossadegh was a feudal and wanted to keep feudalism in the country. He hated the Pahlavi Dynasty because they wanted to end this slavery and abolish feudalism.

Also, Mossadegh was kicked out of power by CIA operatives. Even Bill Clinton acknowledged this. The Shah was part of the deal, too.

Oh, if Bill Clinton says it it must be true! What about these people then, are they not as cool as Bill Clinton?

Barry Rubin writes "It cannot be
said that the United States overthrew
Mussadeq and replaced him with the
Shah... Overthrowing Mussadeq was
like pushing an open door".

Gary Sick writes The belief that the
United States had single-handedly
imposed a harsh tyrant on a reluctant
populace became one of the central
myths of the relationship, particularly
as viewed from Iran.

Amir Taheri writes "What happened
was not a successful conclusion of a
(CIA) conspiracy but a genuine
uprising provoked by economic
hardship, political fear and religious
prejudice.

Richard Helms, long time CIA
director, told a BBC television program
that the agency did not counter rumors
of in Iran because the Iranian episode
looked like a success. At the time, of
course, agency needed some success,
especially to counter fiascoes as the
Bay of Pigs.

Even Donald Wilber, the CIA
operative whose "secret report" has
been given top billing by the NYT
makes it clear that whatever he and his
CIA colleagues were up to in Tehran at
he time simply failed.

Wilber writes: headquarters spent a
day featured by depression and
despair... The message sent to Tehran
on the night of August 18 said that the
operation has been tried and failed and
that contrary operations against
Mussadeq should be discontinued

http://aryamehr.org/eng/19august/shahbanoo.htm
http://aryamehr.org/eng/19august/28mordad.htm

Maybe read a bit more about what the Iranians say other than putting your head into western media 24/7?

And if the Shah was such a great man, why didnt he stay in Iran during the Revolution? Probably feeling guilty of his own little coup twenty years before.

• He did not want to start a bloodshed. As I already said, in a interview with a Indian newspaper he said that a "king can not rule on the blood if it's people" (not exact quote)
• He was sick, tired and manipulated by traitors. He had cancer that kept him fatigued and he was unable to think clearly. Imagine when you get a simple flu, you can't think, you can't eat, you don't want to do anything but just rest. Imagine having cancer, 1000000x worse and meantime wondering what is happening to your country, your people and what you have worked for a long time.
• There was no "little" coup twenty years ago. Really, you think Mossadegh was some kind of angel coming down from the skies? haha. Too much listening to your parents and western media.

And just in case you misunderstood, I am NOT Jewish. I chose that name because I am a supporter of Zionism.

Still, supporter of killing innocent people I guess.

I admit the first Pahlavi made important contributions to his country, but plz would anyone enlighten me with facts about what positive things the second Pahlavi did?

• The White Revolution this transformed Iran.
  
• Built and modernized Iran and also had more plans to do so. Check out some of the exciting new projects. The so called "Milad Tower" that the Islamic Republic recently finished building (which today has a ton of problems, they can't do ONE thing right) was originally a blueprint from the Shah's time. Check out the amazing Hospital blueprints which were under build. Before the Shah you would not see such buildings ever.
  
• He built one of the worlds best military According to Kenneth R. Timmerman, "Already, by 1979, Iran had more modern combat aircraft than most European powers." and "Had he remained in power but two years longer, his Air Force would have become the third most powerful in the world" Source
  
• He established a welfare system in Iran who at that time was much better than Sweden, today Sweden has great welfare!
  
• Pick a subject and read. Sadly the site has not been updated in a long time - but it's still a good place to start and get to know stuff then you can google around and read a bit more.
  
• During the last 25 years of his reign, average, annual, per capita income rose from $160 to $2 450, and,
  in 1977, the IMF predicted that the GDP of oil-rich Iran would equal Spain's, by the end of the century.
  
• I am sorry, but I am having a hard time thinking now and remembering everything. If you ask what area you want more info I will gladly tell you what he did to change it and so on. I can go through more later if you want. Check out these two videos who compare these two regimes to know more,for example during the Shah there were zero debt and actually so many were employed that there were a shortage of workers! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKIU2q6EYqM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VALl4f5aSk

 

[bloh]

Leader got thrown out in an uprising =/= bad leader

He did made some mistakes, eg. SAVAK and being ignorant of public opinion.

Yeah. I mean if in your country (I don't know where you live) but assume one million out of ten milion loud citizens go out and riot while the other nine milion sit silent it means that the leader was very bad!

SAVAK was no mistake. It saved many lives. It saved the nation from communism.
Ignorant of public opinion? Only if you knew so many people want the Shah back to Iran. So many people regret those times. Pictures of the Shah's son was spread in Iran a few months ago saying "Our vote goes to him" (even though I don't support his son, because he is too much of a coward)

But did he manage to stop the Iranian Revolution? He more or less triggered it, right?

What? The White Revolution was a huge reform to make Iran into a very modern state and so on.

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

Untrue?

And that is not all - it was a quick search. Of course he did a lot of other bad things and tried multiple times to shutdown the parliament and other democratic stuff the Shah had established.



Tried? He was a bad politician. He should of known that Iran did not have the expertise nor the military power or anything similiar to stand against the powerful western nations and deal with the oil themselves. It's very simple. Where were you or your family at that time starting demonstrations against countries like UK doing this to other nations? How come you have just started to do stuff now?

The treasury became empty, and the sales of Iran's oil did not equal the revenues of 1949

The oil was later nationalized in a correct way by the Shah but we can all say what happened later - the 1979 "revolution". A new speech by the Shah was released a few weeks ago where he says that under no circumstances will he renew the 25-year old oil contract with the British which would expire in 1979. Whoop, guess what happened?

The Shah wanted him killed? Haha. You forgot that it was the Shah that made sure he did not get executed even though he was supposed to be.

Mossadegh was a feudal and wanted to keep feudalism in the country. He hated the Pahlavi Dynasty because they wanted to end this slavery and abolish feudalism.



Oh, if Bill Clinton says it it must be true! What about these people then, are they not as cool as Bill Clinton?



http://aryamehr.org/eng/19august/shahbanoo.htm
http://aryamehr.org/eng/19august/28mordad.htm

Maybe read a bit more about what the Iranians say other than putting your head into western media 24/7?

• He did not want to start a bloodshed. As I already said, in a interview with a Indian newspaper he said that a "king can not rule on the blood if it's people" (not exact quote)
• He was sick, tired and manipulated by traitors. He had cancer that kept him fatigued and he was unable to think clearly. Imagine when you get a simple flu, you can't think, you can't eat, you don't want to do anything but just rest. Imagine having cancer, 1000000x worse and meantime wondering what is happening to your country, your people and what you have worked for a long time.
• There was no "little" coup twenty years ago. Really, you think Mossadegh was some kind of angel coming down from the skies? haha. Too much listening to your parents and western media.

Still, supporter of killing innocent people I guess.

• The White Revolution this transformed Iran.
  
• Built and modernized Iran and also had more plans to do so. Check out some of the exciting new projects. The so called "Milad Tower" that the Islamic Republic recently finished building (which today has a ton of problems, they can't do ONE thing right) was originally a blueprint from the Shah's time. Check out the amazing Hospital blueprints which were under build. Before the Shah you would not see such buildings ever.
  
• He built one of the worlds best military According to Kenneth R. Timmerman, "Already, by 1979, Iran had more modern combat aircraft than most European powers." and "Had he remained in power but two years longer, his Air Force would have become the third most powerful in the world" Source
  
• He established a welfare system in Iran who at that time was much better than Sweden, today Sweden has great welfare!
  
• Pick a subject and read. Sadly the site has not been updated in a long time - but it's still a good place to start and get to know stuff then you can google around and read a bit more.
  
• During the last 25 years of his reign, average, annual, per capita income rose from $160 to $2 450, and,
  in 1977, the IMF predicted that the GDP of oil-rich Iran would equal Spain's, by the end of the century.
  
• I am sorry, but I am having a hard time thinking now and remembering everything. If you ask what area you want more info I will gladly tell you what he did to change it and so on. I can go through more later if you want. Check out these two videos who compare these two regimes to know more,for example during the Shah there were zero debt and actually so many were employed that there were a shortage of workers! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKIU2q6EYqM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VALl4f5aSk

Ok, I admit I was leaning towards Mossadegh ( I tend to support nationalists, liberals, but not autocrats who became hated partly for their extravagance), so after following your advice, I came with a few points.

1. Mossadegh was in power for a mere 2 years as Prime Minister; Mohammed Reza Shah had 12 (counting from his coronation). Mossadegh was a supporter of the Monarchy; but he also insisted upon the rule of the people of Iran, not by its King. He was therefore, a supporter of Constitutional Monarchy. The Shah was, in comparison, a man who was egocentric, autocratic, and the man responsible for closing Iran's democractic structure and replacing it with the one-party state.

2. The Shah abolished feudalism? No, it came back in the form of the Iranian Revolution of 1979. Now, why is that? Yes, the Shah was admirable in initiating the White Revolution, but due to the fact that the Shah did not implement democratic reforms with it, it caused much anger on the nations' clerics. You must be well informed with how Ayatollah Khomeini thought about the Shah, dont you?

3. The rise in wealth was not due to the Shah's efforts; it was the oil. You could argue that Mossadegh's Iran was poor even with the nationalization of the oil, but that was when the British were refusing to come to a compromise agreeable to both nations; the British offered no technicians or management when they left Iran. Whereas the Shah divided the shares 50-50; talk about selling a nation's dignity,huh?
And this compromise was reached only after Mossadegh's policies of nationalization of the oil industry.

4. Did Mossadegh use SAVAK? No, it was the Shah who used it to his wishes. Did people hate SAVAK? Oh yes, they did.

5. Did the Shah modernize his country for his people or for his own ego?

 

[bloh]

Ok, I admit I was leaning towards Mossadegh ( I tend to support nationalists, liberals, but not autocrats who became hated partly for their extravagance), so after following your advice, I came with a few points.

It's alright.

1. Mossadegh was in power for a mere 2 years as Prime Minister; Mohammed Reza Shah had 12 (counting from his coronation). Mossadegh was a supporter of the Monarchy; but he also insisted upon the rule of the people of Iran, not by its King. He was therefore, a supporter of Constitutional Monarchy. The Shah was, in comparison, a man who was egocentric, autocratic, and the man responsible for closing Iran's democractic structure and replacing it with the one-party state.

You say that he wanted the people to rule Iran. It's very simple. How can someone like Mossadegh, who shutsdown the parliament, who forces women to wear hijab and who wants dictatorial powers from the parliament want something like that?

Iran was a constitutional monarchy. The Shah was one of the greatest patriot Iran had. You have written your opinion and I can't say anything about that (egocentric, autocratic) other than I disagree and I do it with my whole heart and mind because I know he was not like that.

He created the parliament. He created the senate. He wanted Iran to become a full democratic nation, but there were two things stopping this:
1) The Iranian people, around half of it was still illiterate. Democracy does not work with illiterate people.
2) The Cold War. Americans, British, Russians, Arabs and other nations tried to take over Iran. Russians wanted to turn Iran into a communist country, which in turn would make the Arabs into communism. Iran was a powerful nation with a lot of influence.

The single party was called Rastakhiz and inside Rastakhiz there were two different wings one called Jena-ye Sazande "the building wing" and the other one was called "Jena-ye Pishro" "the progressive wing". Those two groups have always been in opposition against each other, and a third wing was about to be created but the revolution stopped that.

These wings show that the one party system wasn't as dictatorial as you think, especially with a third wing that was going to be created by Abdol Madjid Madjidi.

Before Rastakhiz party, there were other parties as well, most two important were "Iran Novin Party" and "Mardom Party" .. these parties were put up for each elections and the Shah proposed a leader for the winning party .. who would appear as the prime minster.. Dr Amir Abbas Hoveyda who was Iran's prime minster 1965-1977 was the leader for Iran Novin Party. Tudeh Party was banned because they were not a political party but a terrorist group.

Iran had to deal with a lot of terrorism and once I can get you to read a bit more about how western nations tried to make the Shah look bad and to destroy Iran then you will see why the Shah made some things. But we can take that later.

2. The Shah abolished feudalism? No, it came back in the form of the Iranian Revolution of 1979. Now, why is that? Yes, the Shah was admirable in initiating the White Revolution, but due to the fact that the Shah did not implement democratic reforms with it, it caused much anger on the nations' clerics. You must be well informed with how Ayatollah Khomeini thought about the Shah, dont you?

He still abolished it during his rule - what happens after does not have to do with him. Again please read my comment about democracy. I don't know why you seem to be so much in love with it. Look at how many "democratic" nations we have today and see how they are, they are not exactly utopia. They have a lot of issues too and a lot of scandals and so on.

3. The rise in wealth was not due to the Shah's efforts; it was the oil. You could argue that Mossadegh's Iran was poor even with the nationalization of the oil, but that was when the British were refusing to come to a compromise agreeable to both nations; the British offered no technicians or management when they left Iran. Whereas the Shah divided the shares 50-50; talk about selling a nation's dignity,huh?
And this compromise was reached only after Mossadegh's policies of nationalization of the oil industry.

There is a difference in knowing how to use the oil. It's like this. Imagine you get 1 milion - you work hard, invest, research, invent - you put a lot of time and energy into this and then you one day have 10 milion, then somebody comes and says "Oh, it was not due to his effort that he got 10 milion"

Again, as I said - one has to know where to invest, how to invest and so on. Oil was there and it was used very well - compared to Iran today, with that much oil they still can not have a high-developed country.

I do not understand what you mean with the 50-50 Shares so please develop that so I can answer you.

As I said, Mossadeghs failed nationalization only destroyed Iran. It forced the Shah to take more loans and aid from countries in order to build Iran. Do read the Shah's book "Mission for my country"

4. Did Mossadegh use SAVAK? No, it was the Shah who used it to his wishes. Did people hate SAVAK? Oh yes, they did.

To his wishes? SAVAK was like any other intelligence agency protecting the country. Many times SAVAK stopped traitors and people who wanted to destroy Iran.

One time Tudeh Party attempted to bomb a huge shopping center in Iran and SAVAK found out and got them in the last second with nobody injured.

People hate SAVAK... I am sure 35 million (population of Iran during 1979) did not hate SAVAK. Just because you read a thing or two against SAVAK does not mean that it was that bad.

Next time do me a favor. Read ten comments against SAVAK and one for SAVAK too.

5. Did the Shah modernize his country for his people or for his own ego?

For his people and for his country. He wanted his nation to be able to compete with countries like USA and UK and so on which we would of have. Iran's GDP was not far away from Japans back in 1978.

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

It's alright.



You say that he wanted the people to rule Iran. It's very simple. How can someone like Mossadegh, who shutsdown the parliament, who forces women to wear hijab and who wants dictatorial powers from the parliament want something like that?

Iran was a constitutional monarchy. The Shah was one of the greatest patriot Iran had. You have written your opinion and I can't say anything about that (egocentric, autocratic) other than I disagree and I do it with my whole heart and mind because I know he was not like that.

He created the parliament. He created the senate. He wanted Iran to become a full democratic nation, but there were two things stopping this:
1) The Iranian people, around half of it was still illiterate. Democracy does not work with illiterate people.
2) The Cold War. Americans, British, Russians, Arabs and other nations tried to take over Iran. Russians wanted to turn Iran into a communist country, which in turn would make the Arabs into communism. Iran was a powerful nation with a lot of influence.

The single party was called Rastakhiz and inside Rastakhiz there were two different wings one called Jena-ye Sazande "the building wing" and the other one was called "Jena-ye Pishro" "the progressive wing". Those two groups have always been in opposition against each other, and a third wing was about to be created but the revolution stopped that.

These wings show that the one party system wasn't as dictatorial as you think, especially with a third wing that was going to be created by Abdol Madjid Madjidi.

Before Rastakhiz party, there were other parties as well, most two important were "Iran Novin Party" and "Mardom Party" .. these parties were put up for each elections and the Shah proposed a leader for the winning party .. who would appear as the prime minster.. Dr Amir Abbas Hoveyda who was Iran's prime minster 1965-1977 was the leader for Iran Novin Party. Tudeh Party was banned because they were not a political party but a terrorist group.

Iran had to deal with a lot of terrorism and once I can get you to read a bit more about how western nations tried to make the Shah look bad and to destroy Iran then you will see why the Shah made some things. But we can take that later.



He still abolished it during his rule - what happens after does not have to do with him. Again please read my comment about democracy. I don't know why you seem to be so much in love with it. Look at how many "democratic" nations we have today and see how they are, they are not exactly utopia. They have a lot of issues too and a lot of scandals and so on.



There is a difference in knowing how to use the oil. It's like this. Imagine you get 1 milion - you work hard, invest, research, invent - you put a lot of time and energy into this and then you one day have 10 milion, then somebody comes and says "Oh, it was not due to his effort that he got 10 milion"

Again, as I said - one has to know where to invest, how to invest and so on. Oil was there and it was used very well - compared to Iran today, with that much oil they still can not have a high-developed country.

I do not understand what you mean with the 50-50 Shares so please develop that so I can answer you.

As I said, Mossadeghs failed nationalization only destroyed Iran. It forced the Shah to take more loans and aid from countries in order to build Iran. Do read the Shah's book "Mission for my country"



To his wishes? SAVAK was like any other intelligence agency protecting the country. Many times SAVAK stopped traitors and people who wanted to destroy Iran.

One time Tudeh Party attempted to bomb a huge shopping center in Iran and SAVAK found out and got them in the last second with nobody injured.

People hate SAVAK... I am sure 35 million (population of Iran during 1979) did not hate SAVAK. Just because you read a thing or two against SAVAK does not mean that it was that bad.

Next time do me a favor. Read ten comments against SAVAK and one for SAVAK too.



For his people and for his country. He wanted his nation to be able to compete with countries like USA and UK and so on which we would of have. Iran's GDP was not far away from Japans back in 1978.

First of all, apologies for forcing my own opinion upon the Shah upon you; but this Shah really turned me off when I saw pictures back in university about the extent of his propoganda machine; it looked like he had the whole palace/palaces covered with gold and ornaments...

Counter-argument 1: Remember that Mossadegh did all of what you said during when was in power, admist a period of time when political unrest was strife; Mossadegh needed extra power to carry out his duty and obligations bestown upon him by the Iranian people, and he thus did so by asking for emergency powers from Parliament, which by the way, granted him.

2:A constitutional monarchy in theory, no doubt. For me, anything beyond old Queen Elizabeth's symbolic status of Britain, as well as the Commonwealth Nations, is too much power in it. The best example for me disliking the idea of a monarchy is the example of King Nodrom Sihanouk of Cambodia.

3. As to the oil industry, if Mossadegh had not raised public opinion so such levls as to not make Anglo-Iranian resume their business again, Iran would not have not have had the Consortium Agreement, in which Iran had half the profits of its own oil. The Shah would have had too many alliances to think about to do much against the Western nations.

4. Mossadegh did much to tackle the land-elite, as well as strengthen the democratic principles of his nations by curtailing the powers of the Shah.

5. SAVAK's situation in Iran back then was comparable to the South Korean KCIA during the reign of strongman Park Chung-hee; while both did much to strengthen the internal security of their conutries, it did so at the cost of many lives. Terror was need to counter terror- bit ironic, but it was the Cold War , and back in the 70's Iran had Russia, whilst poor South Korea had a economically, culturally, and militarily stronger North Korea.

6. You said it yourself: the Shah wanted his nation to be strong, whereas in the case of Mossadegh, the people of Iran wanted him to make their nation strong.

7. I cannot read a book written by the Shah purely by the fact it would be biased towards himself; I would rather read biographies about him, whether positive or negative about his reign.

8. In a democracy, scandals get revealed to the public after a administration change/during the administration. But in autocratic nations, they dont get revealed- they stay as political bargaining chips, ready to be revealed whenever the ruler wishes so.

 

[Great Cyrus]

mosadegh was a great man for us. he recognized our Oil Industry.

 

[Mowque]

Can I actually ask a Iranian something? Instead of watching this debate between them?

 

[draaibaar]

Hey! Great Cyrus! A friend of mine is homosexuel. Is it safe for him to visit your country or not? What would you advise?

(Mowque, you can ask anything you like)

 

[Mowque]

I got a map of 'Persia" from a used book store the other day. The map is quite old (dated 1904) and it shows a small peice of Iran owned by Oman. You know anything about that?

 

[Squonk]

http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/IranTerritorialChanges_sm.gif

 

[Great Cyrus]

Hey! Great Cyrus! A friend of mine is homosexuel. Is it safe for him to visit your country or not? What would you advise?

(Mowque, you can ask anything you like)

NO my friend. iranians love all Foreigners. Here isnt any danger. but i saying him this cities is good: shiraz (persepolice). isfahan (apadana). tehran. hamadan (hegmataneh). mashhad (toos)

 

[Perfection]

NO my friend. iranians love all Foreigners. Here isnt any danger. but i saying him this cities is good: shiraz (persepolice). isfahan (apadana). tehran. hamadan (hegmataneh). mashhad (toos)

In what way do Iranians love homosexual foreigners?

 

[Great Cyrus]

I got a map of 'Persia" from a used book store the other day. The map is quite old (dated 1904) and it shows a small peice of Iran owned by Oman. You know anything about that?

oman was for iran Before. our emperors Lost our country. With this Iran’s race is Different with other Countries in asia. our Race and germanians isnt Different.
iran has oldest Raj in world.

this is iran in before.

iranians women.

--------------------------------------------------------
this is new iran

 

[Great Cyrus]

In what way do Iranians love homosexual foreigners?

oh sorry. my mean was we love all people of the world.

 

[Steph]

500 BC...

this is iran in before.

Anyway, you have just lose at the "we had the biggest" contest.

Waiting for a brit to show up...

 

[Perfection]

oman was for iran Before. our emperors Lost our country. With this Iran’s race is Different with other Countries in asia. our Race and germanians isnt Different.
iran has oldest Raj in world.

this is iran in before.

There's no Oman there..

 

[Masada]

Waiting for a brit to show up...

You can keep your dignity.

 

[cardgame]

500 BC...



Anyway, you have just lose at the "we had the biggest" contest.

Waiting for a brit to show up...

I have one thing to say: USSR.

 

[Masada]

I have one thing to say: USSR.

I have one thing to say: British Empire. I'm also fairly sure that the French territories pictured would have been larger than the Soviet Union.

Spoiler :