pre-release info Augustus (Imperium Maius) - Leader Discussion

[Zaarin]

a constellation of seven birthmarks on his chest and stomach, exactly corresponding in form, order, and number with the Great Bear

Octavian is Dipper Pines?

The first thing that jumps out at my is he looks way too young. Perhaps if we were listed as Octavian, but as-is, perhaps you could argue he was the age Alexander the Great was at taking the throne - 20 - but certainly not 35 or 36.

Yeah, I think they were aiming for a young Octavian anachronistically called Augustus.

That was one of my pet peeves with some of the Civ VI leaders, too, looking far too young.

Only Lautaro and Jadwiga looked young to me, and I think they were supposed to be young (Jadwiga died at 25 and Lautaro at 22 or 23).

 

[Quintillus]

Only Lautaro and Jadwiga looked young to me, and I think they were supposed to be young (Jadwiga died at 25 and Lautaro at 22 or 23).

Victoria is the one who most stood out to me, followed by Jadwiga (I haven't yet drawn Lautaro since purchasing Rise and Fall in July; I'd been playing just Vanilla + Gathering Storm previously). To be fair, Victoria did take the crown at 18, but is much better known for reigning until the age of 82.

I suppose it's a similar case - they went with Victoria at coronation, and Octavian after Caesar's assassination (when he would have been 18 years and 5 months old). Personal preference, but I don't see a reason to favor a young representation unless there is a historical reason to do so, as in Jadwiga and Lautaro's cases. Augustus lived to be nearly 77, so I see no reason not to represent him from some time in the range when he was in fact Augustus.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Victoria is the one who most stood out to me, followed by Jadwiga (I haven't yet drawn Lautaro since purchasing Rise and Fall in July; I'd been playing just Vanilla + Gathering Storm previously). To be fair, Victoria did take the crown at 18, but is much better known for reigning until the age of 82.

I suppose it's a similar case - they went with Victoria at coronation, and Octavian after Caesar's assassination (when he would have been 18 years and 5 months old). Personal preference, but I don't see a reason to favor a young representation unless there is a historical reason to do so, as in Jadwiga and Lautaro's cases. Augustus lived to be nearly 77, so I see no reason not to represent him from some time in the range when he was in fact Augustus.

But teen Octavius is very relatable. Who doesn't remember the tender age of eighteen when you had to endure your step-father's assassination, then form a political bloc with your father's friends to systematically destroy his assassins, then eliminate your allies so that you alone rule the most powerful empire in the world?

 

[Zaarin]

To be fair, Victoria did take the crown at 18, but is much better known for reigning until the age of 82.

Ah, yes, they did go with young Vicky. I assumed it was just to be "different"; I was hoping they'd counterpoise her with an older Elizabeth I suffering from melancholy, but alas. TBH I kind of forget about Civ6 Vicky; I banned her from my games ages ago both because I find her depiction annoying and because I find Civ6's arrangement of "Scarborough Fair" slightly grating on too many listens.

I don't see a reason to favor a young representation unless there is a historical reason to do so

I don't mind going for a variety of ages, and I don't mind if not every leader is depicted in their most iconic form. I would be annoyed if all the leaders skewed young, though, like it was a Hollywood production. (Hatshepsut is the one that stands out to me. She was in her 40s when she became pharaoh. Especially after Civ6 actually depicted Wu Zetian as an older woman.)

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Ah, yes, they did go with young Vicky. I assumed it was just to be "different"; I was hoping they'd counterpoise her with an older Elizabeth I suffering from melancholy, but alas. TBH I kind of forget about Civ6 Vicky; I banned her from my games ages ago both because I find her depiction annoying and because I find Civ6's arrangement of "Scarborough Fair" slightly grating on too many listens.


I don't mind going for a variety of ages, and I don't mind if not every leader is depicted in their most iconic form. I would be annoyed if all the leaders skewed young, though, like it was a Hollywood production. (Hatshepsut is the one that stands out to me. She was in her 40s when she became pharaoh. Especially after Civ6 actually depicted Wu Zetian as an older woman.)

Yes, young Vickie along with old Pericles. I suspect they were designed to contrast with their prior appearances in Civ 4

 

[notNamed]

I would be annoyed if all the leaders skewed young, though, like it was a Hollywood production.

Not sure how many years you've spent in a cave, but current Hollywood literally uses dead people and geriatrics with AI-modeled faces to make them look at least a tiny bit younger.
Like how the soon-to-be 50 Joaquin Phoenix portrayed Napoleon at 26. Top Gun or Indiana Jones push a poor 82-year old around.
How Borderlands, a trash-trove of 2010s meme culture and dubstep with a cel-shaded shooter on top casted people past their midlife crisis for roles where the old, wise man character is 22.

 

[Zaarin]

Not sure how many years you've spent in a cave, but current Hollywood

Current Hollywood sucks even more than it used to. I haven't seen a trailer that even made me want to see something in years. However, that doesn't really change my point that in Hollywood everyone is supposed to be young and beautiful. Even the old people.

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

He has non-combat bonus so a Purple toga would have been more appropriate.

 

[Askia Muhammad]

let’s be fair, these are pretty obviously better than civ 4 models. they’re woefully outdated for the modern day though.

I’m going to be completely honest - graphics are subjective - but I find the Civ 4 leader models to be better than these

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I’m going to be completely honest - graphics are subjective - but I find the Civ 4 leader models to be better than these

i respect your opinion but i don’t see how. you can see the polygon angles in those civ 4 models

 

[Zaarin]

i respect your opinion but i don’t see how. you can see the polygon angles in those civ 4 models

I have to agree with @Askia Muhammad. The Civ4 leaders have personality and color that's just utterly lacking from the Civ7 leaders. All the polygons in the world won't compensate for poor design.

 

[moysturfurmer]

I’m still convinced it’s a problem with the shaders/textures/lighting they’re using. Perhaps if their was just a tiny bit of reflectance on the skin or some fresnel magic or some sub surface scattering, or even just some ruddy colors manually painted in on the nose, cheeks, and ears, that would help. I feel like it’s salvageable even without a whole teardown of what they’ve got so far.

My tinfoil hat theory is they’re taking so long to release any First Look video because they’re doing some emergency tweaks to the leader models.

 

[Zaarin]

I’m still convinced it’s a problem with the shaders/textures/lighting they’re using. Perhaps if their was just a tiny bit of reflectance on the skin or some fresnel magic or some sub surface scattering, or even just some ruddy colors manually painted in on the nose, cheeks, and ears, that would help. I feel like it’s salvageable even without a whole teardown of what they’ve got so far.

Yep, faking SSS and fresnel have been very doable for video games well over a decade, and the harsh neutral lighting is not great. However, there's still a certain je ne sais quoi that makes the models feel very dead and devoid of personality. I think the best an art pass could do for these models is make them palatable; I don't think I'm ever going to love the art style (or lack thereof) they chose for leaders.

 

[pokiehl]

I’m still convinced it’s a problem with the shaders/textures/lighting they’re using.

Tecumseh's model that they're showing off looks great, though it's clearly not "in-game." The 2 Napoleon models, however, do appear to be "in-game" and they look really good too. That gives me a lot of hope that everything will continue to improve and look better as we get to release.

There's definitely a lot of WIP stuff going on. Look at the Switch video - Himiko's face didn't even move. I'm confident everything will be looking good before we know it.

 

[Zaarin]

Tecumseh's model that they're showing off looks great, though it's clearly not "in-game." The 2 Napoleon models, however, do appear to be "in-game" and they look really good too.

I'd call them passable rather than great. They don't look awful like Ben, Himiko, or Augustus, but they still look bland.

 

[pokiehl]

I'd call them passable rather than great. They don't look awful like Ben, Himiko, or Augustus, but they still look bland.

I get that the overall style isn’t for everybody. It’s growing on me more and more though. It feels like they really fit the rest of the game’s look.

 

[Zaarin]

I get that the overall style isn’t for everybody. It’s growing on me more and more though. It feels like they really fit the rest of the game’s look.

Funny you should mention that because one of my early thoughts was, "I love the museum diorama art style. It's a shame they carried that over with leaders inspired by museum mannequins."

 

[Lord Lakely]

Ah, yes, they did go with young Vicky. I assumed it was just to be "different"; I was hoping they'd counterpoise her with an older Elizabeth I suffering from melancholy, but alas. TBH I kind of forget about Civ6 Vicky; I banned her from my games ages ago both because I find her depiction annoying and because I find Civ6's arrangement of "Scarborough Fair" slightly grating on too many listens.


I don't mind going for a variety of ages, and I don't mind if not every leader is depicted in their most iconic form. I would be annoyed if all the leaders skewed young, though, like it was a Hollywood production. (Hatshepsut is the one that stands out to me. She was in her 40s when she became pharaoh. Especially after Civ6 actually depicted Wu Zetian as an older woman.)

I've always liked this reconstruction of Hatshepsut that puts her as clearly overweight and middle-aged:

Which should have been the angle they went with her. I don't mind the model they went with, but oh look another yassified pharaoh (we JUST had Cleo twice!!!). If you're going to pay Gwendoline Christie to deliver a beautiful monologue about Ordinairy People Doing Extraordinairy Things, you might as well underline that principle by making the leader models look like Real People (and not "real" as in "uncanny valley with spaghetti hair").

I’m going to be completely honest - graphics are subjective - but I find the Civ 4 leader models to be better than these

They are. It's not the graphic quality, but the ANIMATION that sets them apart, even to this day. Take this reel of expressions from Willem (which is fairly tame compared to some of the others) and tell me this isn't better than what we're seeing in Civ7 so far.

The way the eyes, mouth and eyebrows move, the body language expression displeasure, distrust or approval. Every model has a distinct look, and a very well designed face that expresses the emotions it needs to express

like sure the clothing, the background and especially the hands are low quality by today's standards. The point still stands however. These models WORK. And they're also cartoony, specifically because they have to communicate non-verbally. (Lowkey i think the VA is the reason why Civ6's leaders were disliked. The combination of Civ4's expressive models + GOOD voice work in a sense almost put in too much emotion and dipped a wee bit too much into youth theatre. I can with confidence say that the VA was definitely the reason why I don't like over half of Civ5's leaders.)

 

[pokiehl]

I guess taste is taste, but everything about Civ 4 visually looks really, really bad to me, especially the leaders. Everything about them from the quality to the art style is really unappealing.

I know you’re being earnest but those screenshots are so ugly so me that I had to wonder if you were being extremely sarcastic for a minute.

I imagine it correlates heavily with how nostalgic one is about Civ 4.

 

[Nikolai II]

I guess taste is taste, but everything about Civ 4 visually alooks really, really bad to me, especially the leaders. Everything about them from the quality to the art style is really unappealing.

I know you’re being earnest but those screenshots are so ugly so me that I had to wonder if you were being extremely sarcastic for a minute.

I agree. Those pictures are really unappealing.