Battle for Gibraltar

[AlmostCivilized]

PM Cameron (and probably MP Corbyn) will be briefed on all imminent threats surrounding the EU. What made Eurosceptic Corbyn join the remain campaign at the last minute? Why did PM Cameron refer so many times to notions of war in Europe?

Spain is now attempting to exert control over Gibraltar.

This has been a recurring annoyance when Spain and UK are on a level playing field. The UK/Gibraltar joined in 1973 and Spain in 1986. Did stand-alone Spain ever threaten EU Gibraltar?

Post-1986, the Spanish disruptions have gone as far as blockades requiring Royal Navy intervention and complaints to the EU. Gibraltar apparently voted remain in a bid to retain EU protection from Spain.

Is this a short-term problem of Spain being annoying before Gibraltar leaves the EU, or is it a long-term threat? Are the risks any different when EU Spain challenges the stand-alone UK?

 

[Kyriakos]

Wasn't Gibraltar taken by Britain so as to keep an entrance point for its fleets into the med?

They also control some land (larger than Gibraltar) in Cyprus.

I really doubt that Gibraltar will be granted to Spain any time soon, though. It would trigger Spain's own succession crisis with Catalonia etc i suppose (?).

Of course i am not of the view England should keep this territory, or other exclaves they have.

 

[EnglishEdward]

What made Eurosceptic Corbyn join the remain campaign at the last minute?

The Labour MPs would have dumped him if he had not joined the Remain campaign.

They are really stupid, they have not worked out that their pro EU line and
their reluctance to agree a Referendum lost Labour the 2015 election.

Most of them are Mandelson-Blairism appointees trusted not to think too hard.

Nor have the Liberal Democrats for that matter.

 

[Lexicus]

The Labour MPs would have dumped him if he had not joined the Remain campaign.

Best explanation I've seen thus far. And yes, my opinion of the Blairite folk now demanding his blood is very, very low.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Wasn't Gibraltar taken by Britain so as to keep an entrance point for its fleets into the med?

Yes, that was a very long time ago; and that function is largely obsolete today.

If the Spaniards had supported the UK in WW2 they would have got it back,
but they chose instead to send their blue legion to fight for Hitler in Russia.

If they had merely been polite, it would likely have become like Andorra, Liecheinstein, Monaco, or San Marino, but their bellicose threats preclude such quiet progress.

They also control some land (larger than Gibraltar) in Cyprus.

There is an air base at Larnaca of questionable value where immigrants/refugees land.

I really doubt that Gibraltar will be granted to Spain any time soon, though. It would trigger Spain's own succession crisis with Catalonia etc i suppose (?).

It is the other way round. Whenever there is an internal crisis, they start sabre rattling.

Of course i am not of the view England should keep this territory, or other exclaves they have.

And your views on the Spanish enclaves in Morocco?

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Ceuta y Melilla are in fact two decent sized cities much bigger than Gibraltar so it is not in the best interest of Spain to mess too much with Gibraltar or things could get funny with Morocco, who is rearming itself with Saudi money btw. So i do think England and Spain are both happy with the current status quo indeed and any movement from this government is only a propagandist show to please the few righties who still care about gibraltar. Most people dont give an excrement in fact.

 

[Kyriakos]

^I don't support any exclave (not Spain's either), unless it is very near the country + is populated by the same people. Gibraltar as part of Britain looks rather strange

I would also rather have Kalinigrad be part of Poland. (but anyway)

 

[warpus]

The only way Spain ever gets Gibraltar back is if the people who live there hold some sort of a referendum and say that that's what they want. And even if that happens, it's not a 100% guarantee.

 

[Flying Pig]

The only way Spain ever gets Gibraltar back is if the people who live there hold some sort of a referendum and say that that's what they want. And even if that happens, it's not a 100% guarantee.

I agree. I can also see a lack of land borders being part of the post-EU negotiation - so we keep passport checks at airports, stations and ports, but don't set any checks up at the Irish or the Gibraltar land borders, as those aren't likely entry points for the sort of mass migration into either well-heeled or working-class English areas that the Leave campaigners are/were worried about.

 

[uppi]

I agree. I can also see a lack of land borders being part of the post-EU negotiation - so we keep passport checks at airports, stations and ports, but don't set any checks up at the Irish or the Gibraltar land borders, as those aren't likely entry points for the sort of mass migration into either well-heeled or working-class English areas that the Leave campaigners are/were worried about.

But they might become such if it gets known that you can get into the UK without a passport there. Could even be a way for the EU to redistribute refugees: Transport them to the Irish border and point them in the right direction. And then refuse to take them back.

If the UK wants to limit freedom of movement it has two choices: Make it difficult for the people of Northern Ireland/Gibraltar to cross into Ireland/Spain or make it difficult for them to get into England/Wales. Either way will probably contribute to separatism there.

 

[innonimatu]

It is the other way round. Whenever there is an internal crisis, they start sabre rattling.

That's the sole reason any noise whatsoever was made now: Spain is having an election this Sunday.

 

[chijohnaok]

^I don't support any exclave (not Spain's either), unless it is very near the country + is populated by the same people. Gibraltar as part of Britain looks rather strange

I would also rather have Kalinigrad be part of Poland. (but anyway)

Gibraltarians of Spanish origin only make up about 24% of the population of Gibraltar.

The analysis of names in the electoral roll shows that 27% of Gibraltarians have British origin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Gibraltar#Ethnic_origins

Should Gibraltar be Spanish even if the largest group in Gibraltar is of British origin?

 

[Birdjaguar]

If there is still all that refugee congestion on the French side of the chunnel, maybe this will relieve it.

 

[Iapetus303]

Gibraltar has been British since 1704. If it should be returned to Spain on the grounds that 'territories should belong to whoever they belonged to at the begining of the 18th Century', the rest of the world would presumably have to be reorganized quite a bit too:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/1700_CE_world_map.PNG

 

[innonimatu]

Then I'll be claiming Olivença back - let the spanish fulfill their obligations under the Treaty of Vienna!

 

[warpus]

I agree. I can also see a lack of land borders being part of the post-EU negotiation - so we keep passport checks at airports, stations and ports, but don't set any checks up at the Irish or the Gibraltar land borders, as those aren't likely entry points for the sort of mass migration into either well-heeled or working-class English areas that the Leave campaigners are/were worried about.

The EU has an excellent negotiating position so who knows what they are going to push for. Myself, I don't understand the local logistics enough to really comment, but it's going to be interesting to follow over the next couple years. From what I've heard putting up border checks in Ireland/N. Ireland would be problematic in some parts (a lot of parts?) because the border runs through roads, houses, neighbourhoods, etc.

 

[hoplitejoe]

I guess Ceuta and Melilla will be given back to Morocco then?

 

[FriendlyFire]

Wasn't Gibraltar taken by Britain so as to keep an entrance point for its fleets into the med?

They also control some land (larger than Gibraltar) in Cyprus.

I really doubt that Gibraltar will be granted to Spain any time soon, though. It would trigger Spain's own succession crisis with Catalonia etc i suppose (?).

Of course i am not of the view England should keep this territory, or other exclaves they have.

Spain gave Gibraltar to England for its assistance in the war of 1704.
If Spain wants it back, just do it the old fashion way and buy it back for euromonies, though given that Spanish all left in 1704, it would be a minefield for the Spanish to administer.

An Anglo-Dutch force captured Gibraltar from Spain in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession on behalf of the Habsburg pretender to the Spanish throne. The territory was subsequently ceded to Britain "in perpetuity" under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713

The demographics of Gibraltar reflect the many European and other economic migrants who came to the Rock over three hundred years, after almost all of the Spanish population left in 1704.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar

 

[Rashiminos]

By all appearances, Spain wants to negotiate for a favor to be named later.

 

[Zelig]

I agree. I can also see a lack of land borders being part of the post-EU negotiation - so we keep passport checks at airports, stations and ports, but don't set any checks up at the Irish or the Gibraltar land borders, as those aren't likely entry points for the sort of mass migration into either well-heeled or working-class English areas that the Leave campaigners are/were worried about.

But they might become such if it gets known that you can get into the UK without a passport there. Could even be a way for the EU to redistribute refugees: Transport them to the Irish border and point them in the right direction. And then refuse to take them back.

If the UK wants to limit freedom of movement it has two choices: Make it difficult for the people of Northern Ireland/Gibraltar to cross into Ireland/Spain or make it difficult for them to get into England/Wales. Either way will probably contribute to separatism there.

It's not really that complicated - there's precedence in various other places. The US has exclaves with land borders to foreign countries: Point Roberts, Washington

Gibraltar has been British since 1704. If it should be returned to Spain on the grounds that 'territories should belong to whoever they belonged to at the begining of the 18th Century', the rest of the world would presumably have to be reorganized quite a bit too:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/1700_CE_world_map.PNG

I'm most impressed by the nations whose borders haven't changed since then.