Beginnings of the West

[Vrylakas]

Greetings,

With the recent expansion plans for NATO and the European Union, the concept of what constitutes the West is changing - happily - but it provokes some questions about how we define the West and when it all started. I have some strong thoughts on this but I'm interested in hearing others' first.

I've laid out a poll for the question "When did the West truly begin?" but please explain your answers and define if you could what the West is as well - in other words, what distinguishes the West from, say, the Middle East or China? Can other countries or peoples "join" the West? Some countries can be said to have "left" the West (depending on your definition of course) like Bulgaria and Serbia, who both at different time in their early histories accepted Roman, "Latin" Christianity before succumbing to Byzantine Orthodox Christianity. Syria and Algeria were once Christian states; were they "Western"?

 

[nixon]

It is my conviction that the Western civilization has its roots back in the old ancient Greek days. The moral codes, basic philosophy, our fondness of democracy, culture etc., derives from the Greeks. Therefore, I think it's fair to say that we'll find the real origins of most of our societies in Greece. Overall, the Romans also influenced our modern day society in a way you cannot possibly cover today. Also, imagine the influence the Romans had on our architecture. Without those two civilizations, the West wouldn't have shaped in the way we know it today.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Even though you put some care into the poll, it is flawed Vrylakas.

The Greeks are the answer, but the "Ancient" part is to vague, and it's really Athens that is the center of what we call today "Western thought", and it's the Athens from the era of the Persian wars.

The Ancient Greeks could be considered to be the Myceneans of the Bronze age, and they were a people of Kings and despots.

The earliest civilizations, the Sumerians and Eygptians are really "Oreintal" in appraoch, empires with expanstion, absolute heraditary rulers, warrior kings, followed by long periods of stagnation untill finally being absorbed by younger, more vigorus empires.

The ideas of the Athenians are with us to this day, what we consider "western" really means represenative government elected by the people, and this began in Athens.

 

[redtom]

Greeks, democracy and rationalism, both corner stones of the west

 

[Kennelly]

I agree with AoA,without the Greeks of the Classical Era Western civilization wouldn't exist.Basic Western characteristics like Democracy,Individualism or Rule of Law emerged in this era.Of course these haven't been into affect all the time in the West,but I can't think of another culture combining these elements and really trying to enforce it.
The Judeo-Christian faith is the 2nd keystone (so I also believe a non-Christian nation can't belong to the west).The Orthodox nations are somewhat in the Middle,but they certainly belong more to the West than to an 'oriental' civilization.

This should really be a multi-option poll,both without Christianity and Ancient Greece the West wouldn't exist.

 

[onejayhawk]

Not a lot of disagreement here. Between Greek philosophy and Roman monotheism the groundings of the Reneissance was laid. I am less sanguine about the roll of Greek democracy. Perhaps that would have arisen in Italy anyway. Necessity is the mother of invention after all, and just about every conceivable means was tried somewhere in Italy in the 12th-14th centuries.

J

PS Does this make Plato, or perhaps Aristotle, the most important secular writer in history?

 

[Vrylakas]

Clearly the Greeks and the Romans have an overwhelming majority of the votes so far, but I'll throw a wrench in the works for devil's advocacy sake:

The Greeks and Romans certainly contributed immensely to the basic fabric of Western civilization, but can they be called Westerners? The Classicist Edith Hamilton once wrote that [paraphrase] "modern Western man lives in a Jewish house filled with Greco-Roman furniture" [/paraphrase]; this says much of Western philosophical origins but can we really call the Greeks or Romans Westerners? Did Western civilization begin with them, or was it born of their ideas, ex post facto? Were they really even Europeans? They belonged to a Mediterranean world and their focus was southward to that sea. Northward lay barren wastes and barbarian tribes. Did they really see anything inherently different about themselves from their neighbors around the Mediterranean, aside from the usual cultural arrogance all peoples have? It is a dangerous consideration because often modern histories impose our modern weltanschauung onto past worlds, so that for instance the Greek-Persian wars are sometimes portrayed as an epic struggle between the nascent West and a powerful and despotic East. Was it really that simple? Was there already an East and a West?

AofA wrote:

Even though you put some care into the poll, it is flawed Vrylakas.

The Greeks are the answer, but the "Ancient" part is to vague, and it's really Athens that is the center of what we call today "Western thought", and it's the Athens from the era of the Persian wars.

The Ancient Greeks could be considered to be the Myceneans of the Bronze age, and they were a people of Kings and despots.

Point well taken. I should have been more specific; I of course was refering to the golden age of Athens, and not the Doric invasions.

The earliest civilizations, the Sumerians and Eygptians are really "Oreintal" in appraoch, empires with expanstion, absolute heraditary rulers, warrior kings, followed by long periods of stagnation untill finally being absorbed by younger, more vigorus empires.

Agreed, that Egypt, Sumeria, etc. were not Western societies but I included them because there are some who believe the West truly began with these most ancient of empires. I concede that they did indirectly make contributions to Western thought and culture - increasingly we are learning how much the Egyptians may have impacted early Greek society in terms of architecture and technology - but calling them Western is a far stretch indeed. However, I wanted to give others a chance to decide.

I am less convinced at these early dates of a distinctive oriental or occidental cultural tradition; I suspect that only arose when more stable empires (Persia, Rome) could impose control over significant regions and even then they did not comply with modern concepts of "East" and "West".

The ideas of the Athenians are with us to this day, what we consider "western" really means represenative government elected by the people, and this began in Athens.

A major and critical contribution indeed, but could the Athenians truly be called "westerners"? Did the West begin there?

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

In my opinion, yes.

Athenian Greece is the first culture that believed in Science for Sciene's sake (they rarely made practical use of what they discovered), Greek thinkers began what he refer to today as the "Scientific method", attempting to discribe the world around them not through Gods, but through cause and effect.
The first real attempts at the arts of medicene also began with the Greeks (With Hypocrates).

The Athenians also came up with the concept of elected rulers who could be replaced when ineffective or no longer needed (A tyrant had different meaning to them) by legislative methods, up to that point rulers were usually removed in more violent ways.

The Greeks also were the first society to be heavily concerned with leasure activity of the common man, not just nobilty, through Dramas and Comedies, as well as music and the great tradgedies of Greek literature.

All of this is reflected in what we call the "Western spirt".

The Western world always looks to science, in the hope of improving the human condition, and avoids the stagnation and backwardness that is seen in so many places on our planet.
This is a trait of the Greeks, they thought of the human condition as the most important matter in their dailey lives.

All of us who call ourselves western need look to the rocky shores of a small nation, where the foundation of our civilizationn was laid, and that place is Greece.

 

[SunTzu]

Why the Greeks of course

 

[SunTzu]

Ok, which had the biggest influence on Western Civilization as we know it?
The Greeks or the Romans?
Thought i'd make an Add-on question to the thread

 

[Hitro]

I'd rather say "with the renaissance".

Of course people in this thread made good arguments in favour of the Greeks and Romans, but I don't agree based on the following thoughts.
What is the Western civilization? Isn't it more or less a term used to describe a common culture group that is not geographically connected (so that saying "Europe" for example is not possible)?

Now of course most of our philosophical ideas have their roots in both the Greek/Roman philosophies as well as Judeo-Christian religion. But we shouldn't overlook the fundamental backdrop that Europe faced after the downfall of Athens and Rome (which in my opinion is "Christianity's fault", but that's subject for another discussion).
Another thing is the undeniable influence of culture(s) that certainly don't fall under any characterization of "Western", particularly the Arabs.

So altogether I conclude that the modern "West" began with the Renaissance, when those influences were absorbed and people began to reinact the ancient thinking.
Of course that means that Athens and Rome laid (part of) the foundation of it, but that could well have been lost forever. I see their role more as an influence for the later beginning and not a starting point.

 

[gr8ful wes]

July 4, 1776

Actually, the West is a Greek thing

 

[Damien]

I'd say the ancient Greeks,inventors of politics and philosophy.
Minoans were quite awesome.They were not indo-european and a "leisure society".Women were equal to men.Minoans adopted their script from Phoenicians.
It is believed that Indo-european Greeks who came around 2000 BC adopted Minoan customs but they were very different from em(war-like like any indo-european,had powerful kings and women had no great place in public life).Those myceneans adopted the minoan script.

Our latin script is derived from Phoenician script.(Phoenicians were Canaanites who fled from the Sea Peoples who stormed into the ME around 1200 but Minoan civilization is older than that...I don't understand how Minoans could adopt their script from a younger civ).

Our alphabet was pictographic at the beginning.The letter A stems from an aramean word for ox beginning with the sound A and A was used to represent a horn representing an ox.

Didn't Jesus speak aramean?

Semites adopted much sumerian culture and customs.
Sumerians were neither indo-european nor semite.Some believe that they were Dravidian(just like people from the Indus Valley before the Aryan invasion).

Now,who were Aryans?Aryans were a group of immigrants who called themselves Arya(noble ones) and intermarried with Dravidians(nowadays N India speaks indo-european languages and S India speaks Dravidian languages but practises hinduism,the religion of the Aryans).

Aryans were immigrants from Iran(the word Iran stems from Aryan)who disagreed with mazdeism,the religion practised by Persians.
Hindus burn dead people and fire represents deities whereas mazdeans thought that fire represented Evil,that's why they let dead people be eaten by vultures outta cities.
This oppsition can be seen in languages.Dev=devil in persian and deva=god in sanskrit ; ahoura=god in persian and asoura=devil in sanskrit.

Persians and Aryans were indo-european and stemmed from the region around the Caspian Sea.Some bring precisions and believe that Indo-europeans stem from Armenia.
In Armenia there's the mountain on which Noe is believed to have landed after the flood.
And guess what?Sumerians were the 1st ones to talk about a Great Flood.Others,including Hebrews, would adopt that myth.

Abraham stemmed from Ur,where the Ubeidian culture flourished before the arrival of Sumerians in the 4th millenium.

Mesopotamia is where agriculture flourished.As women gathered and then worked in the fields,it is believed that they developped agriculture,the desire to challenge nature in oder to be sure to have food that would lead to cities,civilization and kings(Hebrew judges would btw tell their people that kings are a sign of disobediance to Yawhe).

Could Mesopotamia be the Eden and agriculture be the knowledge's tree?

 

[andrewgprv]

I would have said the Greeks because that was what I was taught in schools but right now I am reading a History of the Arab Peoples and I have learned that Greek Culture and Ideas were important in the Arab world far before something like the renassance. Greek Culture really was not confined to the west and did not create a distinction. Greek Philosophy was doing very well in places like Iraq, Iran and Syria in around the 9th century. I voted on christianity instead because it was this that really made the distinction of the west, that seperated them from the rest of the world.

 

[sabo]

The west began with Billy the kid, and Jesse James

 

[Vrylakas]

Well, the Greeks are still ahead. However, I come much closer to Hitro with my opinion; I think that while the Classical and Judeo-Christian worlds had an immense impact in shaping the West, they were not of the West. There are many core attributes and experiences unique to the modern West that the Classical world just didn't have, even if they were laying some of the philosophical foundations the West would build its "Jewish house with Greco-Roman furniture" on. Neither the Greeks nor Romans had any of the experiences that would shape the West, like the Renaissance, the subsequent Enlightenment, the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, secularism, capitalism, the Industrial Revolution - and so much more. It's not just a matter of time, that the Greek and Roman societies simply didn't survive long enough to experience these events; it's a matter of the social tensions and composition that created these events in Western history - such elements were absent from the Classical world. The Classical world made immense contributions to Western society but I believe Plato and Plutarch had much more in common with Xerxes or Ramses than they did Martel or Rousseau. (For my definition of these attributes and experiences, check out this old thread. Gosh, I'm lazy!)

The first time in my opinion the beginning of these attributes can be traced is when Pope Stephen II crossed the Alps in the mid-8th century to desperately request military aid from the Franks against the Lombards and Moslems in southern Italy. A deal was struck wedding old Mediterranean religious and legal traditions with Northern European (barbarian) power. The West was born, and with that first collusion on Christmas Day in A.D. 800 when Pope Leo III placed a crown on Charlemagne's head came the first attempts to rectify the Classical world's traditions with the post-Classical world. Almost immediately some very familiar Western themes arose - tensions between church and state, questions on legitimacy and governance, individual versus corporate rights, etc. that would play out in Western history, sometimes peacefully and sometimes violently. Charlemagne was the first true Westerner.

BTW, I didn't include all the candidates I've come across over the years; I just listed 10 and called it quits. (Refer to the "lazy" statement above...) I've read a theory that claims the West wasn't truly born until the Renaissance when an extremely dogmatic Christianized barbarian Europe (re)discovered its Classical heritage. Others have claimed that the beginning came with the Protestant Reformation, some the Age of Exploration, one even said the Treaty of Utrecht in 1714 (the first official document to refer to Europeans as Europeans instead of "Christians"). There is no absolute right answer; there is no signpost that states "YOU ARE NOW THE WEST".

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I have waited a few days before chiming in, and my opinion (not that it counts or anything ) is more in line with Hitro's and Vrylakas'. I see the modern West's true emergence when the modern nations of England, France, Germany, Spain etc arose admidst the ruins of the Dark Ages...

The modern West receives as much inheritance fr the Classical world, as well as fr the other civilisations like Egypt, Babylonia, India, the Arabs, China etc etc.

Besides I don't expect the Romans and Greeks to see themselves as part of the 'West'; they probably think more of themselves as the crown of humanity and the rulers of the world, rather than as only a recognizable portion of the known world.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by Damien
I'd say the ancient Greeks,inventors of politics and philosophy.
Minoans were quite awesome.They were not indo-european and a "leisure society".Women were equal to men.Minoans adopted their script from Phoenicians.

The Minoans used a script coded Linear A & B. Linear B had been decoded I think and it showed Mycanean influence. The earlier Linear A is still a mystery. The Minoans did not get their script fr the Phoenicians I think...

It is believed that Indo-european Greeks who came around 2000 BC adopted Minoan customs but they were very different from em(war-like like any indo-european,had powerful kings and women had no great place in public life).Those myceneans adopted the minoan script.

More like they wiped out the Minoans and forced their script (Linear B) on them. The Minoans probably lost due to natural disasters striking Thera and the main island (remember Atlantis?).

Anyway, after this, the whole region entered a Dark Age and when the Greeks reemerged, they had forgotten both scripts and adopted the Phoenician alphabet I think...

Our latin script is derived from Phoenician script.(Phoenicians were Canaanites who fled from the Sea Peoples who stormed into the ME around 1200 but Minoan civilization is older than that...I don't understand how Minoans could adopt their script from a younger civ).

I thought the Phoenicians are native to Phoenicia...

It was believed part of the Sea Peoples were Canaanites... and their main target was Egypt...

Now,who were Aryans?Aryans were a group of immigrants who called themselves Arya(noble ones) and intermarried with Dravidians(nowadays N India speaks indo-european languages and S India speaks Dravidian languages but practises hinduism,the religion of the Aryans).

Aryans were immigrants from Iran(the word Iran stems from Aryan)who disagreed with mazdeism,the religion practised by Persians.

No, the Aryans came fr further north, fr a proposed Indo-European 'homeland' probably somewhere in South Russia/Ukraine etc. One branch invaded India; another Persia.

Hindus burn dead people and fire represents deities whereas mazdeans thought that fire represented Evil,that's why they let dead people be eaten by vultures outta cities.
This oppsition can be seen in languages.Dev=devil in persian and deva=god in sanskrit ; ahoura=god in persian and asoura=devil in sanskrit.

Mazdeans??? I thought you're describing Zorocrastrians and their belief in dualism (good and evil).

The Hindus believed in a pantheon. No relation betw the two.

Persians and Aryans were indo-european and stemmed from the region around the Caspian Sea.Some bring precisions and believe that Indo-europeans stem from Armenia.

The Persians are the later-day descendants of the Aryan invaders of Iran.

In Armenia there's the mountain on which Noe is believed to have landed after the flood.

Mt Ararat...

Abraham stemmed from Ur,where the Ubeidian culture flourished before the arrival of Sumerians in the 4th millenium.

I thought the Ubaidians (sp?) were from after the Sumerian city-states had been conquered by Semitic-speaking tribes...

Mesopotamia is where agriculture flourished.As women gathered and then worked in the fields,it is believed that they developped agriculture,the desire to challenge nature in oder to be sure to have food that would lead to cities,civilization and kings(Hebrew judges would btw tell their people that kings are a sign of disobediance to Yawhe).

Not just Mesopotamia; agriculture seemed to have arisen stimultaneously in many place, incl Egypt, parts of Europe, China, the New World, India etc... As for the rest of the paragraph,....

Could Mesopotamia be the Eden and agriculture be the knowledge's tree?

I think this is speculation... Read a book once; they located it further north, around Lake Van where the modern borders of Iraq, Iran and Turkey meet. Quite a convincing argument but forgotten name of book...

 

[Kafka2]

535 AD, with the eruption of Krakatoa. That's where modern history starts if you subscribe to Catastrophe theory.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Why would an eruption in the South Pacific set off the modern world?