Bible talk

[Core Imposter]

I would like to protest that I am listed as the starter of this thread. I am not.

I have a toothache.

We lost our precious Siamese about a month ago. I put her out and she never came back. I loved that cat.

My wife's surgery has been postponed. If there are God believers here, I'd appreciate prayers. I can spare the cat, not the wife.

 

[Core Imposter]

I will admit an exclusion for Ents. If you have any.

 

[Gori the Grey]

I wonder if people's expectations based on the prophesies regarding the end times are misguided in somewhat the same way that people's expectations based on the prophesies of the Messiah were misguided: looking for a worldly manifestation rather than a spiritual one. The prophesies concerning the Messiah made the Israelites expect a military leader who would throw off Roman occupation, and instead the Messiah turned out to be a spiritual leader whose purpose was to throw off our oppression by sin. So he fulfilled the prophesies, but in an unexpected way.

What prompts this line of reflection are two gospel passages. First, Christ is once asked directly when the kingdom of God was coming. Luke 17:20. "Once Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, and he answered, "The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There it is.'" And then he says something that further subverts the expectation that it will be a discrete era, with particular distinctive characteristics of its own (how our minds generally distinguish one era from another, how our minds generally experience historical time). He says "For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you." The present tense makes me feel that he's saying "that time you think will be some discrete era in the future is actually a state that already obtains." For me this is the biggest thing that his answer does, is subvert one of our most fundamental mental processes: distinguishing present from future.

Well, what is that state that already obtains? The answer that comes to mind for me involves one of the other end time prophesies (but now I need to put that in scare quotes, "end time" prophesies, since it's not some future time but a time that is among us): Matthew 25:31ff. There he sounds like he's describing some future event: a time when a judge will sort out good people from bad people. But what sorts people into the two categories is how they treat people in need.

That characterizes all times. There are always people in need among us. The distinction between future and present blurs. All of the times when people would be in need were future to the moment when Christ spoke these passages. But that time is also always present, to people living through any particular present time. The sorting into sheep and goats isn't (fundamentally) a final distinct judgement that will be rendered by a judge, but a thing that we are ourselves constantly doing, in our presents, based on how we respond to people in need.

Since you yourself feel better when you help other people, you're getting what is generally conceived of a future reward (living in the kingdom of God) now, in your present.

For me this has the advantage of putting prophesies about the future, which are always kind of cryptic, in touch with teachings of Christ that seem more straightforward and easy to interpret (though, admittedly, difficult to implement): Love your neighbor as yourself. Love one another as I have loved you.

 

[amadeus]

So those folks that believe supporting Israel to bring about the Second Coming by building a Third Temple, what’s the theological perspective on that here?

To me, and I’m not a religious authority, that seems like trying to force the event, which seems contradictory to the belief that we in the temporal are not in control of the spiritual.

 

[Angst]

So those folks that believe supporting Israel to bring about the Second Coming by building a Third Temple, what’s the theological perspective on that here?

To me, and I’m not a religious authority, that seems like trying to force the event, which seems contradictory to the belief that we in the temporal are not in control of the spiritual.

yea the qualms i have isn't really with the people that believe the kingdom of god is already upon us (that's standard bible faire) but the people that need this interpretation as a part of a logical premise (that the bible can't lie about the state of the world in the first century AD) in order to then believe that the apocalypse is happening "soon"; the purpose of this apocalypse, then, is naturally to bring god's divine realm upon man, but also to clean up all sin, ie, progressive stuff... and indeed, when the world then doesn't end, forcing the end is then a step that's not far away. :/

and naturally, yea, it's contradictory. beyond your notes about differentiation, it imo doesn't work with what the bible says (the kingdom of god being both present and coming works poetically, not logically, and it doesn't reflect why the things in the bible were actually written, even if, again, it can work for poetic application)

 

[Birdjaguar]

Some of those who read the Bible have been predicting the Second Coming is upon us for 2000 years. Believers want it to happen in their lifetime.

 

[Core Imposter]

Gori seems like a preterist. All of Gori's posts seem well thought out and substantial.

 

[Core Imposter]

Some of those who read the Bible have been predicting the Second Coming is upon us for 2000 years. Believers want it to happen in their lifetime.

I know we should be patient. Our hope should be the salvation of as many souls as possible. But of course, God's will shall be done. Sometimes we allow ourselves to be overcome with a desire to see evil punished sooner rather than later and also, and this does not reflect well on us, we just want to see God reveal Himself to the skeptics. That is a very sinful attitude. We make ourselves very small sometimes.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

I would like to protest that I am listed as the starter of this thread. I am not.

I have a toothache.

We lost our precious Siamese about a month ago. I put her out and she never came back. I loved that cat.

My wife's surgery has been postponed. If there are God believers here, I'd appreciate prayers. I can spare the cat, not the wife.

I'll pray for you and your wife Core. I'm also sorry to hear about your cat. To this day I still cry inside when I think of my very first cat and how she had to be put down because of a cancerous lymphoma. That was 10 years ago.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

How does that square with all the people he ordered killed in the Old Testament? You can't come to redemption through someone who doesn't exist (yet).

This might be a hard answer I'm about to give but I must be honest with you. If someone is practicing wickedness and heinous evil in rebellion against god is it not right to stop it? The truth is we don't know what sort of wickedness was done back then but it must have been egregious enough for god to command those people be destroyed. Same thing with the great flood. The enemy does not want you to think that god is just but rather he's a tyrant that orders the death of innocents when in reality it is that old serpent himself that wants people dead and leads people astray.

I know it's a hard concept to accept and I can totally understand why so many reject god in the first place. I'll just repeat what I've said before to others here...keep asking questions and keep searching.

Some of those who read the Bible have been predicting the Second Coming is upon us for 2000 years. Believers want it to happen in their lifetime.

None of us know when it will happen but the second coming is indeed part of believers hope. I hope it happens in my lifetime but if I die tomorrow I'm ok with that too. I know where I'm going.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

This might be a hard answer I'm about to give but I must be honest with you. If someone is practicing wickedness and heinous evil in rebellion against god is it not right to stop it? The truth is we don't know what sort of wickedness was done back then but it must have been egregious enough for god to command those people be destroyed. Same thing with the great flood. The enemy does not want you to think that god is just but rather he's a tyrant that orders the death of innocents when in reality it is that old serpent himself that wants people dead and leads people astray.

I know it's a hard concept to accept and I can totally understand why so many reject god in the first place. I'll just repeat what I've said before to others here...keep asking questions and keep searching.

First off: replies tend to come across as patronizing, as though I'm being talked down to. That's not appreciated.

If someone is practicing wickedness and heinous evil in rebellion against god is it not right to stop it?

Why? Different people have different concepts of god/gods/goddess(es) and what is good, right, and moral and what is evil, wrong, and immoral. What is seen as "rebellion against god" may be nothing more than people simply going about their daily lives according to THEIR god's wishes and are therefore not in rebellion to the god(s) THEY worship.

To put it in less abstract form: There are people who sincerely think that people like me (atheists) are evil and "in rebellion against god". Should they have the right to consider that I've committed "wickedness and heinous evil" and have the right to kill me?

Please don't pooh-pooh that. There really are people who are that deluded, who think that anyone who doesn't believe as they do deserves to die.

You've been around the forum a long time - did you ever read any posts by someone named Domination3000? One of his common themes was "women who have abortions should be executed." He didn't let up on that until I pointed out that he could potentially be advocating the execution of one or more female CFC members (dunno if any female members here have had an abortion and never asked; it's not my business, but it remains a possibility).

I'm not convinced the flood ever happened. A smaller-scale local flood is not impossible, of course, and to the people of that time and place who were unaware of how big the world really is, it may have seemed as though the whole world was flooded. But the flood story is predated by a much earlier flood story (aka Gilgamesh). And the preponderance in the bible of "40 days/40 nights" and Moses et. al wandering for 40 years... 40 seems to be a popular number, doesn't it?

Gotta ask how the Antarctic penguins got on the ark and somehow survived. The Middle East is far outside their normal habitat, both in terms of temperature, and available food. And why would they go there, anyway? Or did they just sit by the ocean on an ice shelf and wait for Noah to come pick them up?

 

[Core Imposter]

Gotta ask how the Antarctic penguins got on the ark and somehow survived. The Middle East is far outside their normal habitat, both in terms of temperature, and available food. And why would they go there, anyway? Or did they just sit by the ocean on an ice shelf and wait for Noah to come pick them up?

Genesis 7: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Mayhaps it were not necessary to give the penguins a ride?

Why would any animals board the ark? Instructions from the boss. Not a particularly odd thing. You might as well ask why a fish would swallow a man and give him a ride to Nineveh. Garden variety stuff.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Genesis 7: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Mayhaps it were not necessary to give the penguins a ride?

Why would any animals board the ark? Instructions from the boss. Not a particularly odd thing. You might as well ask why a fish would swallow a man and give him a ride to Nineveh. Garden variety stuff.

Penguins may be aquatic birds, but they require dry land for survival. Dry land is where they lay their eggs, and dry land is where the chicks live until their adult feathers are grown in. Juvenile penguin feathers aren't waterproof, so they cannot swim. This is why it's a tragedy that so many chicks have drowned when the ice shelves their creches were on literally melted under their feet due to elevated temperatures caused by climate change. The chicks couldn't swim, so they died.

The bible tends to overlook common sense things about normal animal behavior and their survival requirements in the quest to tell a cute story.

Just as physics doesn't care about humans' beliefs, neither does biology. The fact is that penguins could neither survive the journey it would have taken to get to where the ark was, nor would they have survived being cooped up for 40 days and nights in living conditions inadequate for their species - not even if it's Galapagos penguins under consideration, and those aren't the ones represented by that ridiculous Noah's Ark theme park thing in the U.S. where they have an Antarctic penguin happily living in the jungle not far from Adam and Eve. Not to mention that there are something like 20 different penguin species, and you can't convince me that a few thousand years is sufficient for all of them to have evolved after the flood stopped and the water levels went down.

So on the one hand, you seem to be saying that all the penguins died and therefore it wasn't necessary for them to be on the ark, but on the other hand, god told them to get on the ark.

Make up your mind.

 

[Birdjaguar]

nor would they have survived being cooped up for 40 days and nights

It rained for 40 days and nights. The flood lasted a year.

 

[Core Imposter]

The bible tends to overlook common sense things about normal animal behavior and their survival requirements in the quest to tell a cute story.

Just as physics doesn't care about humans' beliefs, neither does biology.

Let me be clear. God is not constrained by physics or biology. He is a supernatural being and supernatural beings do supernatural things.

Jesus was resurrected from the dead. Not metaphorically but fully, spiritually and physically. He is risen.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It rained for 40 days and nights. The flood lasted a year.

Okay, that makes it even more unlikely that they'd have survived.

Let me be clear. God is not constrained by physics or biology. He is a supernatural being and supernatural beings do supernatural things.

Jesus was resurrected from the dead. Not metaphorically but fully, spiritually and physically. He is risen.

Uh-huh. And I'm in the midst of writing a Merlin/Highlander crossover in which people are immortal due to magic and Immortal due to some genetic quirk that means a quick and violent original death activates a state of Immortality that can only be broken by beheading. They come back from everything else.

It's a story, in both cases. People do not come back from the dead. Biology and chemistry say so, and don't care what people believe, or what fantasy/science fiction works they might enjoy playing around with.

Penguins cannot thrive in the type of captivity they'd have to endure in an ark. The temperature would be wrong. They wouldn't have the right food. Neither would they have what they'd need for the time of year when mating and egg-laying happen. They would also lack the social aspect necessary.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

First off: replies tend to come across as patronizing, as though I'm being talked down to. That's not appreciated.

Hi Valka,

I tried to be careful how I answered. Please don't think I was trying to be patronizing as I too have sensitive feelings. If I did come across that way I'm sorry. Let me know via PM what I can do to correct myself so I can give better answers to you and people in general that won't offend.

 

[Joij21]

First off: replies tend to come across as patronizing

That's literally how this forum works, it's communication via replies/quoting what others type, otherwise it's communication via rants ment for no one to see. It's the XenForo® way.

Plus you're quoting other people too just like everyone else here. Pure hypocrisy.

 

[Core Imposter]

May God bless you and keep you and shine His upon you time without end. So long folks.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Hi Valka,

I tried to be careful how I answered. Please don't think I was trying to be patronizing as I too have sensitive feelings. If I did come across that way I'm sorry. Let me know via PM what I can do to correct myself so I can give better answers to you and people in general that won't offend.

Okay. Check your PMs later.