Brace Yourself...It's Official: Water Found on the Moon

[Lord Baal]

It's one-sixth of Earth's gravity, so you're corrected.

This simply confirms what Ben Bova has been writing about in his Grand Tour series for the last ~20 years.

So, neolithic ruins on Mars the next big discovery? Or Jovians giants?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

You've read them as well?

I wouldn't go so far as to say there are ruins on Mars or giant Leviathans on Jupiter. I merely meant that Bova wrote about the Moon having water ice at the south pole in Moonrise and Moonwar. Since Bova is a real scientist (he has a doctorate), he ought to be qualified to hypothesize about such things. So when it's actually confirmed, I'm not surprised as others might be who haven't already read about these possibilities.

 

[Lord Baal]

You've read them as well?

I wouldn't go so far as to say there are ruins on Mars or giant Leviathans on Jupiter. I merely meant that Bova wrote about the Moon having water ice at the south pole in Moonrise and Moonwar. Since Bova is a real scientist (he has a doctorate), he ought to be qualified to hypothesize about such things. So when it's actually confirmed, I'm not surprised as others might be who haven't already read about these possibilities.

I've read some of them. I've never actually read Jupiter or Mars, which are supposed to be his best works, largely due to my local library's habit of getting every second book in a series. But I've read Saturn, Titan and Mercury, among others. I've also read Powersat, which is a stand-alone book of his. All those years of editting sci-fi magazines must have paid off, because he started writing and was immediately good. That doesn't happen often. With precious few exceptions, most editors-turned-authors suck, and suck badly.

Quite a few sci-fi authors have legitimate scientific backgrounds, actually. Isaac Asimov wrote almost as much non-fiction as he did fiction, and Robert Heinlein was an engineer. I'm sure there are plenty of others I can't think of now as well. Too bad the mainstream these days is clogged by the time of crap put out by Kevin J. Anderson and his ilk, and not quality works like Bova's, or Vinge's.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I've read some of them. I've never actually read Jupiter or Mars, which are supposed to be his best works, largely due to my local library's habit of getting every second book in a series. But I've read Saturn, Titan and Mercury, among others. I've also read Powersat, which is a stand-alone book of his. All those years of editting sci-fi magazines must have paid off, because he started writing and was immediately good. That doesn't happen often. With precious few exceptions, most editors-turned-authors suck, and suck badly.

Quite a few sci-fi authors have legitimate scientific backgrounds, actually. Isaac Asimov wrote almost as much non-fiction as he did fiction, and Robert Heinlein was an engineer. I'm sure there are plenty of others I can't think of now as well. Too bad the mainstream these days is clogged by the time of crap put out by Kevin J. Anderson and his ilk, and not quality works like Bova's, or Vinge's.

Woot! At last I find somebody here who likes the same SF I do!

Isaac Asimov earned a doctorate in chemistry some years after his first commercial sale. If I remember correctly, he was already in college at the time of that first sale. Asimov also got drafted into the army in WWII, to work on chemistry-related research into the atomic bomb, and barely got out in time before the rest of his group got sent out to one of the test sites. As a consequence, he lived for many decades longer, in much better health, than they did.

Bova has written quite a few nonfiction science books, and one of his books on writing is in my "to read" pile. And yes, Mars is his masterpiece, in my opinion. You really should try to read it - because it shows exactly how a multinational space exploration team ought to function. The science is plausible, too (not gonna comment on the alien ruins, though ).

I met Dr. Bova some years ago at a science fiction convention in Calgary, and he said in his Guest of Honor speech that he was really impressed that our pocket of SF fandom is still so interested in reading, writing, editing, and producing thoughtful, quality stories. Con-Version's focus has always been on inviting authors, editors, artists, and local university professors. In 1994 there was a telescope set up to watch Shoemaker-Levy 9 smash into Jupiter, live.

I really didn't care for Mercury, though. Sure, it had the space elevator idea, but the characters were not well-formulated. Venus is absolutely creepy. It's the kind of story that could give a person nightmares.

I'm still working on finding all the Asteroid Wars novels (there are 4 or 5 of them), and I've only read part of Powersat at the library. I think there's supposed to be another Jupiter novel coming out next year (Leviathan).


And yes, Kevin J. Anderson loves to shamelessly promote himself, and brags about some job he had that supposedly gives him "scientist cred" - but you'd never know it, considering the basic mistakes he made in the nuDune books.

*sigh* The old guard authors are mostly gone now, and many of the New Wave as well. When Bova and Robert Silverberg are gone, I don't know what I'm gonna do for quality science fiction.

 

[Lord Baal]

Woot! At last I find somebody here who likes the same SF I do!

There are lots of us, but most of the rest are holed up in their attics or parent's basements. At least, that's what television tells me.

Isaac Asimov earned a doctorate in chemistry some years after his first commercial sale. If I remember correctly, he was already in college at the time of that first sale. Asimov also got drafted into the army in WWII, to work on chemistry-related research into the atomic bomb, and barely got out in time before the rest of his group got sent out to one of the test sites. As a consequence, he lived for many decades longer, in much better health, than they did.

I remember reading that story somewhere else as well. Amazed I didn't remember it, as it's a great story.

Bova has written quite a few nonfiction science books, and one of his books on writing is in my "to read" pile. And yes, Mars is his masterpiece, in my opinion. You really should try to read it - because it shows exactly how a multinational space exploration team ought to function. The science is plausible, too (not gonna comment on the alien ruins, though ).

So, if it's how a multi-national space exploration ought to function, you're saying it's hopelessly unrealistic and will never happen? Because I guarantee people alwys screw things like that up. I really need to browbeat my library into getting those books. I don't have the disposable income to buy them.

I met Dr. Bova some years ago at a science fiction convention in Calgary, and he said in his Guest of Honor speech that he was really impressed that our pocket of SF fandom is still so interested in reading, writing, editing, and producing thoughtful, quality stories. Con-Version's focus has always been on inviting authors, editors, artists, and local university professors. In 1994 there was a telescope set up to watch Shoemaker-Levy 9 smash into Jupiter, live.

The only authors I've ever met are at university, and they're not very good.

I really didn't care for Mercury, though. Sure, it had the space elevator idea, but the characters were not well-formulated. Venus is absolutely creepy. It's the kind of story that could give a person nightmares.

Mercury didn't impress me at all, I must say. It's basically The Count of Monte Cristo in space, but far less epic. Venus a great creepy sci-fi story.

I'm still working on finding all the Asteroid Wars novels (there are 4 or 5 of them), and I've only read part of Powersat at the library. I think there's supposed to be another Jupiter novel coming out next year (Leviathan).

I'd heard that a new Jupiter novel was coming out. I'll have to make sure I read Jupiter first though.

And yes, Kevin J. Anderson loves to shamelessly promote himself, and brags about some job he had that supposedly gives him "scientist cred" - but you'd never know it, considering the basic mistakes he made in the nuDune books.

Anderson did more damage to two different franchises - Star Wars and Dune - than anyone. Even George Lucas, who at least had the decency to creat a great series before he butchered it. He's a frigging tool, and I'm amazed anyone employs him. A terrible author.

*sigh* The old guard authors are mostly gone now, and many of the New Wave as well. When Bova and Robert Silverberg are gone, I don't know what I'm gonna do for quality science fiction.

I recently read the 2006 Nebula Awards Showcase, which I was amazed to stumble across at my local library. There are a few good authors coming through, though I think it's somewhat telling that the winner for best novellette was Vernor Vinge, best novel was Anne McCaffrey (sp?) and best short story went to a guy who wrote an excellent piece that I would have thought was from an old 1950s Galaxy or Astounding magazine, such was the style it was written in. Walter John Williams wrote a fantastic story, but it was a romantic fantasy - not often I find myself liking them.

Most of the young 'up-and-comers' were terrible. One guy actually said that Victor Chiang "didn't understand his work." Son, if Victor Chiang doesn't understand your work, it aint Victor Chiang that has the problem. There were several bright spots however, but most of them were poets and/or involved in fantasy, rather than sci-fi.

Silverberg wrote an essay in it about how he's proud of science fiction for where it's been since he started, but disappointed to see what it's become. He said it was "slow-dying," and he couldn't be more right. I may have to write that book - even though that dastardly Timothy Zahn stole my idea, and before I thought of it no less - if only to have something decent to read.

 

[Abaddon]

This tells me that either of the polar regions could make a good place to set up camp, if we're ever going to build a base.

The poles are about -250oC. So unlikely.

 

[Onionsoilder]

I really don't understand people who don't want us out there, there's so much potential, why all the hate?

Probably because it has no economic value. There is simply no money to be made on the moon, so a lot of people don't want to waste money setting up a moon base. However, it still has lots of scientific potential.

 

[warpus]

The poles are about -250oC. So unlikely.

Ahhh that's perfect for a Canadian moon base

@Valka I've read a buncha Bova's novels and consider him to be one of the best @ writing entertaining space opera sci-fi

 

[Hsinchu]

The water is being generated by solar wind activity. For all you chemists out there, this isn't a largely sustainable amount of water in any one given place hence "Trace".

Spontaneous generation of life is not possible, but life activated by the energy from solar wind would be possible. Unfortunately, as stated, the moon's composition is of more silicates than it is of carbon-based materials. Without sufficient Carbon and Phosphorus building materials, conventional life as seen on the earth would not be possible to be generated on the moon, at least not to an extent that could propagate for long periods of time. Unless we start discovering moonrocks that can self-propagate (silicon-based lifeforms?) we're probably going to be out of luck finding the moonpeople.

As for Mars, tapping the Earth for resources to go someplace is fine, I guess, for awhile. For sustained trips, though, we don't really want to have a long term view of depleting Earth material. If we build rockets and rocket fuels from Moon materials, we can save ourselves some energy from moving stuff of Earth surface and more importantly, conserve resources on this planet FOR this planet.

In the uber-longterm we'll probably have to quit mining the moon, too, since we don't want tidal events to shift too much, so we'll have to start mining another lifeless rock.

My recommendation based on a post on page 1: We mine the hell out of comets. They don't seem to serve any real purpose in the solar ecosystem except a threat to our well-being (if you believe Hollywood) and they are full of ice and other minerals. Also, since they are moving, it is possible they are carrying junk from far away, which may include life forms. We'd have to not mine them if such life is found... but if they are as desolate as the moon, let's get crackin!

 

[Valka D'Ur]

My recommendation based on a post on page 1: We mine the hell out of comets. They don't seem to serve any real purpose in the solar ecosystem except a threat to our well-being (if you believe Hollywood) and they are full of ice and other minerals. Also, since they are moving, it is possible they are carrying junk from far away, which may include life forms. We'd have to not mine them if such life is found... but if they are as desolate as the moon, let's get crackin!

"Solar ecosystem"... I like that. It's an excellent turn of phrase.

Yep, comet and asteroid mining is an excellent way to get what we need. But this doesn't preclude the necessity of a functioning Moon base and Mars base. After all, these rocks aren't going to come to us (most of them); we will have to go and get them. And it's simply not practical to use Earth as a base of operations for that.

@Abaddon: You do realize that any people living and working on the Moon won't be doing so in their shirtsleeves, right? There is such a thing as heating the buildings and space suits - how else do you think people survive in the shuttles and the space stations?

Probably because it has no economic value. There is simply no money to be made on the moon, so a lot of people don't want to waste money setting up a moon base. However, it still has lots of scientific potential.

Nonsense. Just because we can't think of any immediate ultra-profitable endeavors on the Moon doesn't mean there will never be any. Remember, there was a time when we thought the deserts in the Middle East were basically worthless because they were deserts - no water, or not enough to make high-density population practical. But then somebody discovered this stuff called "oil"...

 

[Earthling]

Woot! At last I find somebody here who likes the same SF I do!

Where/what subforum have you been looking for us then? There seem to be a very large number of CFCers who share these tastes in science fiction - there have been multiple times where people have discussed some of the above authors for instance, or, say, the original Dune series of which I believe you've said often you are a fan. All sorts of sci-fi are discussed frequently...there's even this type of discussion over on a thread right now about Stargate...

Anyway, as far as water on the moon goes - first I'd like to thank warpus and others who have helped to clear up some gross misconceptions on this thread - people who are surprised, by, like, liquid oceans on the far side of the moon and whatnot. I'd read about this in Scientifc American the other day, and it certainly is an impressive find, really shows how far we've come along with spectroscopy and surface imaging.

But where it appears the bulk of discussion has been/is headed I have to say I by and large disagree with a lot of the ideas floating out there. I'm not a proponent at all of focusing on manned bases or missions to the Moon or Mars anytime in the near future. Frankly, the cost is prohibitive and the benefits to be gained much too small. If there is some particular discovery that presents a unique need in human exploration - say promising evidence of life on Mars from unmanned satellites, probes etc... we just suck up the costs and don't mess with an intermediate moon base. If the goal is to expand our future capacities to explore space then there are still more potentially useful avenues to investigate - the Space Elevator, and motion technologies like solar sails and laser propulsion. Also, regarding the water-as-fuel thing - Baal, you never really were wrong - water is not really a fuel source, and is the byproduct of storing hydrogen. Hydrogen could be used in some futuristic portable fusion device but that's not realistic - the other idea, though is that you can store energy by splitting water-ie solar energy. But again, there's nowhere near enough concentration to seem like the Moon is that viable of a place for fueling, construction, or other space-base activities.

 

[cardgame]

If Cassini found water, why did it take a decade to publish this story?

 

[cardgame]

Remember, there was a time when we thought the deserts in the Middle East were basically worthless because they were deserts - no water, or not enough to make high-density population practical. But then somebody discovered this stuff called "oil"...

Or, rather, somebody invented this thing called 'automobile' that used oil and they sold a lot of them...

 

[Lord Baal]

Also, regarding the water-as-fuel thing - Baal, you never really were wrong - water is not really a fuel source, and is the byproduct of storing hydrogen. Hydrogen could be used in some futuristic portable fusion device but that's not realistic - the other idea, though is that you can store energy by splitting water-ie solar energy. But again, there's nowhere near enough concentration to seem like the Moon is that viable of a place for fueling, construction, or other space-base activities.

Yay! I'm always a fan of being right. It doesn't happen nearly often enough.

Or, rather, somebody invented this thing called 'automobile' that used oil and they sold a lot of them...

Oil has far more uses than just fuel. There's a good chance that the keyboard you're typing on used oil in manufacturing the plastic it's made out of, your woman uses perfumes and lotions that are made using oil and its by-products, even that your favourite brand of soap utilised oil sometime during its manufacture. Oil is useful for an incredible variety of things, which is why it's shockingly stupid of us to be burning it.

 

[warpus]

The water is being generated by solar wind activity.

Accoding to the articles I've read on this, that was one of the early theories. You make it sound as tho it were fact

 

[Imperialmajesty]

Purely academic. Humanity will probably off itself before we have a chance to stay on the moon and the stars. If we manage to have a permanent base in the stars, it will be via either private enterprise or via the Chinese.

 

[Hsinchu]

Purely academic. Humanity will probably off itself before we have a chance to stay on the moon and the stars. If we manage to have a permanent base in the stars, it will be via either private enterprise or via the Chinese.

Lol. Unbiasedly purely academic, I'm sure.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Where/what subforum have you been looking for us then? There seem to be a very large number of CFCers who share these tastes in science fiction - there have been multiple times where people have discussed some of the above authors for instance, or, say, the original Dune series of which I believe you've said often you are a fan. All sorts of sci-fi are discussed frequently...there's even this type of discussion over on a thread right now about Stargate...

I know there are science fiction fans here, and quite a few Dune fans. But I hadn't known that there were other Ben Bova fans here, and it pleases me greatly to know that there are some.

And sorry, but I don't particularly care for Stargate. I've watched it off and on, but it's not my cup of tea.

 

[warpus]

Ben Bova has so many books that I don't remember which ones I've read - except that I'm 100% certain that I have read Sam Gunn Forever. I used to have a habit of going to a certain used bookstore (called city lights) and buying random sci-fi. I still have most of the books, but ever since I moved they have been sitting in a big unsorted pile in my spare bedroom. I've installed 2 large bookcases in my office (where i am now), but haven't taken the time to organize all the books.

Anyway, this is how I discovered a bunch of writers: Bova, Asimov, Card, Clarke, Lem, Herbert, Sawyer, Baxter, Gibson, Adams. I think total I must have read at least 10 books by Bova.. but if you note a lot of the other stuff I listed tends to be a bit more "hard sci-fi", and a lot of the stuff I consider memorable tends to lie in that category, so I only remember Sam Gunn, from Bova, for better or worse.

 

[bhsup]

Spontaneous generation of life is not possible, but life activated by the energy from solar wind would be possible. Unfortunately, as stated, the moon's composition is of more silicates than it is of carbon-based materials. Without sufficient Carbon and Phosphorus building materials, conventional life as seen on the earth would not be possible to be generated on the moon, at least not to an extent that could propagate for long periods of time. Unless we start discovering moonrocks that can self-propagate (silicon-based lifeforms?) we're probably going to be out of luck finding the moonpeople.