Brexit Thread V - The Final Countdown?!?

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From what I understand the EU has made it fairly clear there won't be more time to deliberate details of the current deal or the basic principles of the current deal (so no negotiations about the form the backstop takes), they might give more time for a referendum so long as the options are open enough (eg including continued EU membership) or for a radically different approach like a Norway/ Switzerland deal. So no hope for Boris.

There was this morning an interview with Blair (Reuters) on the referendum. Blair making a plea for a referendum (again) and that the EU should prepare for that referendum (extending Art 50 period).
Former Prime Minister Tony Blair will say on Friday that Britain and the European Union should prepare for a second Brexit referendum because parliament will probably fail to agree on a divorce deal and the public will need to break the deadlock.
The EU elections are 23-28 May 2019. The interests for the EU to have a 3 months or so campaigning period not polluted by Brexiteer insults and fantasies, including negatives on immigrants with populistic effects, is obvious there. That means a referendum should take place the end of Februari.
IF... if the UK would have started the procedure for a referendum timely, with the remark that it would only happen if so desired in the road to March 29, and otherwise be cancelled, this precaution would have made a small extension of the Art 50 period noncontroversial. (Cancelling a referendum because of not relevant anymore has happened before, though not in the UK).
But no precaution was taken, politically too hot, as if taking with you in your car a first aid emergency box means that you want an accident to happen.

Blair also mentioned in that interview:
An offer by the EU to reform would show “that the political leadership of Europe and Britain had listened to the underlying concerns of those who voted (for) Brexit, not disrespecting the concerns but meeting them in a way which is not damaging”.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-second-brexit-referendum-blair-idUSKBN1OD0FV
huh.... how do I understand that ?
The EU needs to reform the EU in order to show the UK people that the EU understands their underlying concerns that have led to the UKIP campaign, the Cameron gamble, the Brexit campaign and Brexit ?

That UK people felt unhappy about austerity, also caused by the EU, is something I can understand... but... the Tory UK was itself a champion of austerity in the EU.
That the UK believed that they should jump ship when the EU economy stagnated, that the UK allowed itself to be impressed by cheap anti-immigrant sentiments sparked by some irresponsible populists, amplified by the tabloids, given too much legitimacy by the "quality" newsmedia.... is that something that can be blamed to the EU ?
Is Angela Merkel (as in the UK felt proxy together with Macron for the EU) to be blamed that Germany got 1 million immigrants in 2015 ?
That the EU still sought closer ties with Turkey before Erdogan flipped, that the UK tabloids could threaten the UK people with an invasion of millions of Turkish people ?

The only thing I personally think is that the EU made the governing mistake by not recognising how minority xenophobe most of the new East European members were (a huge cultural gap with the old EU), how easily this could strenghten rightwing populism in old EU countries, and how an overemphasis on economy and makeability of cultural change, clouded political thinking and political managing the cohesion of the peoples in the EU.
Blair should realise that every EU country has its own cross to bear. That the EU is no more than the aggregation of the endeavors of its members. AND that any pro-active constructive endeavors by the EU are targetted at the regions, the countries that need help with investments in knowledge infra and physical infra, to give some perspective on a better future.

The selfish approach of the Tory UK, the belief in a Darwinistic society, is reflected in the enormous power in the Brexit campaign and the Westminster argument from that financial aid to the weaker countries. The 350 Million a week bus leading the way of that selfish argument. And how easy did UK people from left to right fell for that argument. How easy was it for some fringe rightwing Brexiteers to attack the basic Labour value of solidarity. Even to that extent that Corbyn did not have and has not the courage to take publicly a true Labour worthy position against that selfish argument by defending that net 10 billion per year. He is silent about it. He would lose too many voters if he did speak out.
(For the not informed: the overwhelming majority of the EU contributions are not going to Brussel technocrats, but to those cohesion investments. EU admin is approx 7% of the approx 1% GDP EU contribution).
 
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I don't know what Blair's goal was when he appeared on BBC R4 Today this morning but he put me off my cornflakes with his claptrap.
 
Extension of Art 50 period to enable a new referendum with Remain....

This is indeed possible.

Thing is the Remainer dominated UK Parliament elected in 2015 only agreed to have
the referendum in 2016 because it was very confident that Remain would win.

Having lost in 2016, the Remainer MPs want to fix the franchise one way or another,
to make sure of the outcome on another vote, which the Leaver MPs will resist.
 
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This is indeed possible.

Thing is the Remainer dominated UK Parliament elected in 2015 only agreed to have
the referendum in 2016 because it was very confident that Remain would win.

Having lost in 2016, the Remainer MPs want to fix the franchise one way or another,
to make sure of the outcome on another vote, which the Leaver MPs will resist.

How are the Remainer MPs fixing the franchise.
It has been said that there are now more young people who have joined the elctorate and leavers have died but are you implying that remainers have been killing off leave voters!

You are correct that remainers dominated Parliament in 2015, 2016 and still do. Leaver MPs knew this in 2015 and 2016 and so should not be surprised that remainers still dominate Parliament after the general election in 2017.
 
Mrs May has just stated that there will be on going talks to see if the EU can give more assurances to the UK Parliament.
 
That UK people felt unhappy about austerity, also caused by the EU, is something I can understand... but... the Tory UK was itself a champion of austerity in the EU.

Austerity in the UK was in no sense caused by the EU. The UK has not adopted the Euro and is thus not subject to any austerity requirements except ones it self-imposes. And it was the Tories and New Labour that chose to do that. It had nothing whatever to do with the EU.
 
I don't know what Blair's goal was when he appeared on BBC R4 Today this morning but he put me off my cornflakes with his claptrap.

Blair's idea that the EU needs to recognize the concerns that led to Brexit is so completely delusional. It's like leaving your girlfriend because you declare that she is a bat person and then showing up later that night on her front lawn shouting that she needs to recognize your concern that she may be a bat person.
 
Having lost in 2016, the Remainer MPs want to fix the franchise one way or another,
to make sure of the outcome on another vote, which the Leaver MPs will resist.
Having won in 2016, Brexiteers are determined not to let a democratic country democratically demonstrate that it can have its collective mind changed through a democratic referendum.
 
Having won in 2016, Brexiteers are determined not to let a democratic country democratically demonstrate that it can have its collective mind changed through a democratic referendum.
Democratic Referendums are an anti-democratic betrayal of democracy!

Blair's idea that the EU needs to recognize the concerns that led to Brexit is so completely delusional. It's like leaving your girlfriend because you declare that she is a bat person and then showing up later that night on her front lawn shouting that she needs to recognize your concern that she may be a bat person.
What did you expect when you started dating Batgirl?
 
Having won in 2016, Brexiteers are determined not to let a democratic country democratically demonstrate that it can have its collective mind changed through a democratic referendum.

Frankly (and I'm not a Brexiteer by any means) having another referendum basically is equivalent to: "we will keep voting until we get the desired outcome." Which isn't very democratic at all.
 
Blair's idea that the EU needs to recognize the concerns that led to Brexit is so completely delusional. It's like leaving your girlfriend because you declare that she is a bat person and then showing up later that night on her front lawn shouting that she needs to recognize your concern that she may be a bat person.
I think this reflects a feature of political discourse in the UK, people have taken to giving people's concerns the tautological label of being 'real' concerns. This leads to all manner of nonsense being taken seriously because people have expressed 'very real concerns'. As opposed to just concerns.
Frankly (and I'm not a Brexiteer by any means) having another referendum basically is equivalent to: "we will keep voting until we get the desired outcome." Which isn't very democratic at all.
It's no less democratic than holding regular general elections. Which are kind of considered an essential part of deserving the label democratic. Being able to change your mind is a built in feature of democracy.
 
I think this reflects a feature of political discourse in the UK, people have taken to giving people's concerns the tautological label of being 'real' concerns. This leads to all manner of nonsense being taken seriously because people have expressed 'very real concerns'. As opposed to just concerns.

Coming from Blair it's obviously just patronizing nonsense. More importantly the idea that the EU should be obliged to take the concerns of anyone in the UK seriously after the UK voted to leave the EU is....silly. And frankly reflects the sort of imperial arrogance that has some EU'ers muttering that the EU will be better off without the UK anyway.

It's no less democratic than holding regular general elections. Which are kind of considered an essential part of deserving the label democratic. Being able to change your mind is a built in feature of democracy.

I don't agree, the fact that the referendum is on a relatively specific question of policy means it is different from electing the government periodically.

Let's just imagine for a moment that there was a second referendum, and Remain won by a similarly small percentage, well within the margin of error of polling. How would you then argue against the Brexiteers calling for a third referendum? If they succeed and the vote is swings back to Leave, will you call for a fourth referendum?
 
Let's just imagine for a moment that there was a second referendum, and Remain won by a similarly small percentage, well within the margin of error of polling. How would you then argue against the Brexiteers calling for a third referendum? If they succeed and the vote is swings back to Leave, will you call for a fourth referendum?
I'd say this neatly demonstrates why referenda on single issues are a bad idea. That we should call it quits at one all and let Parliament decide to do what they think is in the best interests of the country, which is after all their job and is how our government is supposed to operate.

You are also begging the question, which seems to be the in thing. Polls are showing that the country has indeed changed its mind, it is not unreasonable to put the matter to a democratic vote.
 
I'd say this neatly demonstrates why referenda on single issues are a bad idea. That we should call it quits at one all and let Parliament decide to do what they think is in the best interests of the country, which is after all their job and is how our government is supposed to operate.

Well, you can have the opinion that referenda are a bad idea, but the fact is that the government decided to call one and it was carried out and the result of the vote what was it was. I don't know what "call it quits at one all means".

You are also begging the question, which seems to be the in thing. Polls are showing that the country has indeed changed its mind, it is not unreasonable to put the matter to a democratic vote.

In what way am I begging the question?
 
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/14/eu-vs-theresa-may-on-brexit-renegotiation.html

I, for one, would like to thank the unelected European Commission for being just as arrogant and dictatorial as it always is as this will help to insure no deal becomes a reality. Before the Brexit vote PM Camron had sought solutions to some pretty obvious problems but the arrogant European Commission refused to hear any of it much less deal with any practical matters sending Camron home empty handed thus insuring a Brexit win. They are now repeating the same mistake again.

It is completely obvious that that the proposed "Irish backstop" is a horrible idea designed to indefinitely trap the UK into a vassal status it cannot ever break free from, that is what it is designed to do, and as such no agreement which includes such a provision will ever pass Parliament. Rather than dealing with this reality the EC is once again demanding its way or the highway so, naturally, any same person would naturally pick self determination and democracy over such garbage. So thank you Junckers for being true to form and never learning from your past mistakes.
 
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I take it you're not into giving straight answers to questions?
Funnily enough, it is discouraged generally at work as bad practice - it prevents people from thinking and figuring out answers themselves.
 
I for one would like to thank the unelected European Commission for being just as arrogant and dictatorial as it always is as this will help to insure no deal becomes a reality.

Why do you want a no-deal brexit so badly, anyway? Do you think that the ERG's proposed policies are a good idea?

It is completely obvious that that the proposed "Irish backstop" is a horrible idea designed to indefinitely trap the UK into a vassal status it cannot ever break free from, that is what it is designed to do, and as such no agreement which includes such a provision will ever pass Parliament.

So let me ask you this, would you prefer a hard border in Ireland?
 
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