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Brexit Thread VI - The Knockout Phase ?!?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hrothbern, Mar 22, 2019.

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  1. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    How does that follow even as a joke? :)

    Their system has inherent flaws, however the crucial catalyst for what is now witnessed is the schism between mps now in parliament and actual views of the public. In my view there is nothing more disgusting than being voted to do one thing and doing the opposite. Usually it is done more subtly, but lately we have seen how odious politicians are when they are not checked by much and are power-hungry.
    Whatever idiocy happens in Britain it won't change the fact that by now actual change is unlikely. In a sense, therefore, they already remained in the eu.
    Maybe Germany will save things by doing what it does well, ie cause another inhuman war, so that maybe tptp will again be reluctantly forced to pretend they care about humanism; for a few more decades.
     
  2. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    "Their system has inherent flaws"
    I gave myself the time to follow many hours of debate... to get a feel for how it ticks. And filtering out the no-info, no-effect ballast...
    IDK whether it is flawed... it is just less defined. Another approach. Much more relying on unwritten traditions than most continental systems (that are also relying on unwritten traditions !).
    It enables indeed more chaos in certain situations, but also more manoevrability.... and more room and appearingly supported by more appetite... for more intrigues.
    Whereas continental systems look more like the boards of big corporates, having more procedures and rules, also from the stock exchanges, to protect shareholders against executives going rogue... the UK system is more like a very big family owned business full of intrigues. More medieval nobility/Royal court so to say. Shakespeare.

    "however the crucial catalyst for what is now witnessed is the schism between mps now in parliament and actual views of the public. In my view there is nothing more disgusting than being voted to do one thing and doing the opposite"
    Yes... I prefer the non-talkative do-ers of the type: "a man, a man... a word, a word"

    Reality is that every governing layer will disconnect "peu a peu" with the ones that brought them into power. Whether that is the new young King, who started with listening well to his advicors, and changes slowly to someone doing everything on his own (his Royal gut feeling).... or a new generation of the political scene, grown from the latest wave from societal changes, and over time stiffening and disconnecting from their supporter base... enabling, encouraging a new wave of change.
    Reality.
    And not only at the governing layer.
    The same again at company level: one of the biggest priorities any CEO has, is to fight the cancer of his people to entangle themselves more and more with "internal processes", and to direct their focus back to the "external processes". Disconnecting from your suppliers and particularly your customers is a creeping everyday reality of every company. And the more regulations, the more food for internal processes. Teachers, nurses, GPs, etc, here in NL are more busy filling out all kinds of forms, and having meetings all the time to discuss changes from politics (and disagree among each other, until finally some working stance/consensus is found again), that they are actually surpressed in staying focussed on their actual work and actual pupils, patients, customers.
    And the point here for me is: the more the "customer" has wishes that are picked up by polticians using that for politics, the more the governmental wing starts to make changes into details of the implementation by overcooked detailing.... in other words: the more micro-management takes place... the more teachers, nurses, GPs have to cater internal processes, the worse the "customers", the people, are actually helped.

    And "the people" are not helped at all when people in authority are going to give them expectations that are not possible !!!
    The general phase our politicians are in for at least three decades in most countries is stiffling and disconnecting. Some politicians are more sincere in what they raise on expectations, and some politicians just enjoy the party of over-simplistic promises, like Farrage.
    Cameron, with the authority of PM, more someone who freed the genius out of the bottle: his Bloomberg speech still nice to read in that angle: he raised expectations for the UK people, that he thought were both reflecting the UK character and good for the UK prosperity, that were completely unrealistic to achieve.... and the people believed him.. followed it up !
    Here that speech written out: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9820230/David-Camerons-EU-speech-in-full.html


    In the past such a phase was always followed with a new generation of politicians, a new approach, mostly with a new period of a better connection. Some countries having bigger spikes up and down, some countries more moderate spikes.

    EDIT:
    Here a nice article to show that this "disconnect" is as human as it can be.
    It is about a Vietnamese refugee who took over a small 6 employee company near (or in?) Seattle, supplying to Boeing, the big employer there and customer of thousands of small companies in the Seattle area.

    and then the quotes of him I like:

    "They were late on deliveries. They were afraid to pick up the phone,” he said. “That first month, customers just yelled in my ear, ‘Where are my parts?!"
    "A lot of people say to run a business, you have to be tricky. I don’t believe that,” Mach said.
    Honesty and hard work have been critical to his success, he said"
    "When you go big, you become out of touch,” he said. “When my employees leave, I’m often still here” working on the shop floor"




    My old credo: small is beautiful. And applied here: Small companies can be out of touch... big companies are always out of touch.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  3. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Let's not pretend that it's only now that some MPs are out of step with public opinion. Previously, we had Tory MPs cheering in the Commons that they defeated a bill which would require greater oversight on landlords, because of course many of them derive their income from property.
     
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  4. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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  5. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Just read an interesting quote from Hilary Mantel, "England has been too long a nation to see her own nationalism".
     
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  6. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Silurian, at some point you should note that the term is "lose" :p
    Loose is the dietary discipline of an obese person, or a rope which isn't tight.
     
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  7. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Maybe he meant let loose as in Cry havoc and let loose the dogs of the Tory Party leadership election :D
     
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  8. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    In that case i am only referring to the other 10000000000 times he used it :jesus:
     
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  9. uppi

    uppi Warlord

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    And how do you know the views of the public? Three years ago, the people voted - narrowly - for some undefined kind of Brexit. From those that voted leave, some prefer a no-deal Brexit, some may want a very soft Brexit, some still believe in the pink unicorn Brxit that was promised before the referendum, some might have changed their mind and maybe a few even like May's deal. If the public was asked the same question as Parliament was asked: do you accept May's deal?, I suspect the answer would be have been the same: No. I also very much doubt that you could get a majority in a referendum for a no-deal Brexit.
     
  10. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Chieftain

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    Your logic is based on assuming following a lengthy process timetable as before that, while not unreasonable, is inherently artificial.

    If Parliament can decide to extend the EU membership at short notice, then it can call a referendum at short notice.

    All they have to do is get a soft copy of the last referendum act and mark up a few changes with track changes.

    Remember the majority of MPs are Remainers and the Remainers supposedly want a People's Vote.

    If they don't decide to have another UK Referendum, then that is because they have actively chosen not to have one.

    One might ask why?
     
  11. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I am alluding to specific cases. Eg the odd tory who was voted without being at all campaigning to call for cancelling brexit, or the blairites who kept their mouth shut for a while but then resurrected the only matter they are invited to speak to bbc about prior to splitting from the labour party.
    Ie cases where no one can claim the mps have proven public support (in fact some of them already stated they do not even plan to run again for mp), yet do cast a vote. A little while ago some amendment passed with only 1 vote, if you should be reminded, so it is rather important and ignoble a state of things.
     
  12. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Parliament could decide to do lots of things, but it's not going to happen, is it? If a referendum is the be-all and end-all in modern politics, why are you seemingly so eager to cheapen any worth it might have?
     
  13. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Chieftain

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    There is no reason why the ballot paper can not have those three choices with a box to
    the right of each option for people to put a 1 or 2 (or leave blank) to indicate preferences.

    Setting aside the sole UKIP (defector from the tories), all the main parties that introduced the last Referendum Act
    were led by officially Remainer MPs. Yet having lost the vote, they all, sour grapes, claim it was ambiguous.
     
  14. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Chieftain

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    I never said I was eager for anonther referendum.

    However having another referendum is one of the four logical reasons for having an extension.

    I think it unlikely there will be another UK referendum on the same day as the EU MEP elections,
    not because it is impossible, but because the Remainer MP majority in Parliament doesn't want it
     
  15. mitsho

    mitsho Chieftain

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    I feel like there are no checks and balances on what the British Parliament can do so is the UK even a Democracy anymore?

    More serious, I don't see the blame in a disconnect between the MPs and the constituents. That's the usual way for every parliament, once people are elected, they serve for a term. If they show the disconnect, you can vote them off the next time. Now what really poses a problem is the one-member constituencies that make these MPs very unresponsive to the national debate (but much more responsive to local fluctuations of opinion). But could you imagine a parliament like the UK one with 5 to 7 parties working? That would be even more chaotic :)
     
  16. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    And why would the Remainers in Parliament help May ?

    We have a long time consuming track record that the WTO Brexiteers did not made it in Parliament, and the May deal did not made it in Parliament.
    And indeed... why would that change ?
    What for sure is not going to change is the amount of MPs that want no Brexit at all and want a confirmatory referendum. Some of them are outspoken, and some of them have to U-turn to be outspoken and need to wait on the changing public opinion.

    And as Silurian describes, organising that referendum could take a long time.
    With in the mean time the local elections and then the EU elections likely taking a big influence on the opinion development of the people.
    With in the pressure cocktail for May and Corbyn the people that want it "over and done with" (especially Leave people, and not the Remain people) and the eroding-cracking of both parties, each in a different way.

    For the Remainers, whether voters, or party members, or MPs: time is on their side !
    And they know it !!!


    And the way the UK people are going to vote in the local elections on May 2, and especially in the EU elections on May 23-26, is going to show to voters, members, MPs and the two main players if the Remain push has momentum or stagnates.

    In principle May has to prevent by all means that this EU election happens. But how ?
    Compromise fast to a permanent Customs Union with so many wishes of Corbyn, and no veto say in the EU, that it has become a Brino (a Brexit in name only) ?
    Can she sell that to her party ? I think not.
    Can Corbyn sell to his party that he did choose to Brexit, despite most of his voter and member base wanting to have that confirmatory referendum ?
    Whatever the principles involved, I think that the bulk of Corbyn's base will not accept that.
    They want to get rid of the whole affair, as if it never happened. They want the Tories to implode with Rees-Mogg et al disappearing in the mother of all black holes.

    I think that as long as Corbyn does not give in to a compromise, and stays on the fence, May cannot stop EU elections and that likely opinion development of the UK people, including a further erosion of the Tory party.

     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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  17. Wastl

    Wastl Chieftain

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    I would look at it from the opposite end of the spectrum:
    The system looks as if it were about local representation, but that isn't really the case at all. Hardly anyone actually knows who their representative is, all they care about is which party the person belongs to. The two underlying concepts just don't fit to each other.

    Additionaly, first past the post is just such a useless system that undermines democracy. It is far inferior to something like proportionate representation or even single transferable vote.
     
  18. mitsho

    mitsho Chieftain

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    Ok, if I give you the fact that it's more about the national party a member belongs to, then the problem is that within the party groups (primarily right and left), voter lack another option to protest vote with success. And again, that's the problem of single-member constituencies.
     
  19. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    FPTP's virtue is supposed to produce "strong" governments with none of those awkward coalitions that other countries have to cope with. It hasn't even done that. We have had minority governments in the 1920s, 1970s, and most of the 2010s. Thats a pretty bad record for a system that is supposed to avoid such situations. With both Tories and Labour in decline I can't see either getting a majority atm.

    edit: I find it amusing and significant that when we have set up devolved assemblies we have avoided using FPTP.
     
  20. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    Greece has the system AFAIK that the biggest party from elections gets 50 MP seats on top.
    250 seats from popular representation + 50 seats for the biggest party.

    What would be hard in the UK culture by leaving the FPTP system is that party election manifestos become more a negotiation start to form coalition cabinets, more a guidance, and less a 1:1 promise to the voters of a party.
    Not to mention that you need more of a consensus culture in Westminster.
    More opaque to voters in the phase of coalition forming and more opaque during day-to-day decisions because of consensus, and which party has which Minister.

    Quite a leap, needing even more acceptance for the principle of a representative system.
     
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