Equally, without challenge there is no fun for many of us. You need both.
C2C Balance Thread
- Thread starter ls612
- Start date
Equally, without challenge there is no fun for many of us. You need both.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
But why does someone elses perception of challenge need to override anothers? What makes sgtslicks idea of challenge or koshling's, or DH's more important than my idea of challenge?
This is starting to become class warfare in the sense of who has more power/prestige because of the level and speed they choose to play on. And that has been my point all along.
JosEPh
This is starting to become class warfare in the sense of who has more power/prestige because of the level and speed they choose to play on. And that has been my point all along.
JosEPh
Stop saying things like this Joseph, it makes 0 sense. Stop using these broad statements to try and justify what your trying to say. Use examples or facts, not empty rhetoric.
Also the difficulty level system in civ4 is designed to give players varying levels of challenge. The whole idea is that Deity isn't challenging enough and therefore the entire mod is lacking difficulty.
Also the difficulty level system in civ4 is designed to give players varying levels of challenge. The whole idea is that Deity isn't challenging enough and therefore the entire mod is lacking difficulty.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
But that is an erroneous statement. It could be that only the Deity level is lacking.
Can you not see what I'm saying? You totally ignored the fact that you pronounced judgement on Epic after only playing 400 turn of "1" game! That just does not make you an experienced Epic player. Nor does it give you the Right to pass judgement on Epic game speed Or Noble Difficulty because you play on Deity and Or Snail or slower. That is bias. And it is statistically a flawed sampling for analysis.
And as for my "making 0 sense" I have to disagree it makes plain sense. Also my punctuation at the end makes it a Question. Please actually read what I'm saying or asking. It makes for better understanding between us.
Please do whatever you feel needs to be done on The upper difficulty levels that you have experience with. But Please do not presume because you play those levels that you "know best" for the levels you do Not normally play. Is this plain enough? <--Question mark see.
JosEPh
@JosEPh and Sgtslick:
I have looked into this general issue, and found two things.
1. The iconstruct and itrain ARE slightly low in my opinion, I have increased them very slightly to see how much of an effect it has. This does however lead into point 2.
2. The ihurrypercent is/was kinda screwed up. In vanilla BtS, the ihurrypercent multiplied by the iconstructpercent would be more or less 10000 (100 times 100). Those products are in C2C 6000, 4500, and 9900, respectively for Eternity, Snail, and Epic. I think given we have slightly more gold in C2C, at least in real numbers, that those products should be somewhere in the 12000-14000 range, so hopefully this won't be too much of a change.
I have looked into this general issue, and found two things.
1. The iconstruct and itrain ARE slightly low in my opinion, I have increased them very slightly to see how much of an effect it has. This does however lead into point 2.
2. The ihurrypercent is/was kinda screwed up. In vanilla BtS, the ihurrypercent multiplied by the iconstructpercent would be more or less 10000 (100 times 100). Those products are in C2C 6000, 4500, and 9900, respectively for Eternity, Snail, and Epic. I think given we have slightly more gold in C2C, at least in real numbers, that those products should be somewhere in the 12000-14000 range, so hopefully this won't be too much of a change.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Guys... getting emotional on these matters does not assist the analysis process, which is where we should be focusing our energies.
Please just itemize complaints and then comment on the items brought up or we're going to be like ships passing in the night arguing over issues we don't realize we're in complete agreement on and agreeing where we actually disagree. I'm finding the conversation as a whole completely impossible to follow because I'm not even really quite sure what we're arguing about here.
We're not TRYING to make this a class warfare issue. One thing that might be messing with our heads, I've noticed in the difference between playing Normal speed for testing and Snail speed for an honest attempt at a game for fun, is that the ratios ARE off. And when we get used to the ratios (build/tech/$ etc rates) as they are where we are normally playing, any change in speed is immediately noticed. I believe that, with proper queuing, the same amount of achievement should be accomplishable by a city within the span of time to research through the ages on all settings. And right now this is simply not the case. So in this way, we are imbalanced.
Seems the disagreement is which ratio is 'accurate' for a balanced game. We can't fix that until we fix the ratios to match the change in speed accurately first. THEN, when all gamespeeds are running at roughly the same achievability ratios, then we can actually start bringing the game into balance. So we should worry about that first. We had it down pretty well before I left and since then its back to being a righteous mess. I'm not sure how this happened but its a headache to solve and I'm hoping someone is taking some responsibility for it because I really don't want to have to go back to messing with gamespeeds personally.
Please just itemize complaints and then comment on the items brought up or we're going to be like ships passing in the night arguing over issues we don't realize we're in complete agreement on and agreeing where we actually disagree. I'm finding the conversation as a whole completely impossible to follow because I'm not even really quite sure what we're arguing about here.
We're not TRYING to make this a class warfare issue. One thing that might be messing with our heads, I've noticed in the difference between playing Normal speed for testing and Snail speed for an honest attempt at a game for fun, is that the ratios ARE off. And when we get used to the ratios (build/tech/$ etc rates) as they are where we are normally playing, any change in speed is immediately noticed. I believe that, with proper queuing, the same amount of achievement should be accomplishable by a city within the span of time to research through the ages on all settings. And right now this is simply not the case. So in this way, we are imbalanced.
Seems the disagreement is which ratio is 'accurate' for a balanced game. We can't fix that until we fix the ratios to match the change in speed accurately first. THEN, when all gamespeeds are running at roughly the same achievability ratios, then we can actually start bringing the game into balance. So we should worry about that first. We had it down pretty well before I left and since then its back to being a righteous mess. I'm not sure how this happened but its a headache to solve and I'm hoping someone is taking some responsibility for it because I really don't want to have to go back to messing with gamespeeds personally.
That is, in so many words, what I have been working on sporadically for the past two or three months. I want for it to feel like you have to be strategic on what you queue up and build. The hard part is that our techs to buildings to units ratios in C2C is so different from normal BtS, not to mention that the hammer costs and beaker costs are also off.
I will admit that a lot of what I do in this regard is trial and error, but I do think we are better in the balance than we were three months ago. We still have a ways to go, but this is progress.
Sgtslick, you need to be more polite in your disagreements, this forum is supposed to be friendly and helpful, not a flame war battlefield.
I have played more like 10-15 games on epic its just haven't played one in awhile. The fact you regularly play on epic and have not mentioned this problem is worrying.
Whatever, I haven't said anything impolite.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Really? What's this then?Sgtslick said:
Not exactly what I would call polite since it seeks to strike at the ego of the individual you're arguing against using belittling and disrespectful accusations. (Not to say this isn't a two way street, particularly within the bounds of this conversation, nor to say any of us are perfect, but if this wasn't an incendiary set of comments there, I don't know what is.)Sgtslick said:
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I play/test exclusively on Snail/Noble. Over the last few releases including SVN, I find that almost everything is broadly balanced and challenging except
1) The cost of wonders if 5-10 times to low, The Great Wall in 4 turns and most of the old wonders are about that order.
2) Event penalties and rewards are just too trivial to worry about.
at least up to the end of the classic period which is as late as I have gone recently.
On another note, I think we may need to change the event system. It currently has a maximum of one event per turn (adjusted for game speed). This means for example that I get a new volcano or two or I get one go extinct per game. Even if I have 7 or more near me.
1) The cost of wonders if 5-10 times to low, The Great Wall in 4 turns and most of the old wonders are about that order.
2) Event penalties and rewards are just too trivial to worry about.
at least up to the end of the classic period which is as late as I have gone recently.
On another note, I think we may need to change the event system. It currently has a maximum of one event per turn (adjusted for game speed). This means for example that I get a new volcano or two or I get one go extinct per game. Even if I have 7 or more near me.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
@Is612,
I started a New Epic game yesterday afternoon. (Since I have not figured out how to remove the Feature_Cactus_xxxx Revision that broke the savegames started before it)
Some milestones:
34400BC the AI founded Druidism
34000BC I finished Cult ID
26800BC AI founded Shamanism (this is normally my 1st religion and I got beat out)
19300BC I finished Tribalism to start my city expansion phase
18700BC Ngaiism founded by AI (I usually get this one too because of the "old techtree pathing" but the new is better in this regard)
15850BC I founded Tengriism (had to beeline like heck to get it! )
12560BC I'm 10 turns from Sed Life and don't know yet if I will get it 1st. I have 5 cities at this time and am building another Tribe to start a 6th. I have not yet met a neighbor. Nor do I have Rafts yet either.
Will post some more milestones after further play time today.
This Epic game is on an Islands (extra, many small islands ,low sea level) Map, Huge , 7AI, Noble.
I'm playing as Israel and David is my Leader.
Options settings:
No Rev, No Vassals, No Inquisitions, No Tech Diffusion, Multiple Research and Production, Multiple Religion Spread, No Limited, No Choose, No Barb Civ, No Barb World, Usable Mountains (I agree with the sentiment that this should become a Default setting), No Guilds, No Corps, No Flex Diff, No City Limits, No Fixed Borders, No Storms, No Realistic Culture Spread. (There's more but I didn't write it all down)
I have a pattern for Tech research that I've used for awhile but with the addition and realignment, I abandoned it for this game. I'm not the Tech Leader yet. If I get Sed Life 1st then I probably will have become the Leader.
JosEPh
I started a New Epic game yesterday afternoon. (Since I have not figured out how to remove the Feature_Cactus_xxxx Revision that broke the savegames started before it)
Some milestones:
34400BC the AI founded Druidism
34000BC I finished Cult ID
26800BC AI founded Shamanism (this is normally my 1st religion and I got beat out)
19300BC I finished Tribalism to start my city expansion phase
18700BC Ngaiism founded by AI (I usually get this one too because of the "old techtree pathing" but the new is better in this regard)
15850BC I founded Tengriism (had to beeline like heck to get it! )
12560BC I'm 10 turns from Sed Life and don't know yet if I will get it 1st. I have 5 cities at this time and am building another Tribe to start a 6th. I have not yet met a neighbor. Nor do I have Rafts yet either.
Will post some more milestones after further play time today.
This Epic game is on an Islands (extra, many small islands ,low sea level) Map, Huge , 7AI, Noble.
I'm playing as Israel and David is my Leader.
Options settings:
No Rev, No Vassals, No Inquisitions, No Tech Diffusion, Multiple Research and Production, Multiple Religion Spread, No Limited, No Choose, No Barb Civ, No Barb World, Usable Mountains (I agree with the sentiment that this should become a Default setting), No Guilds, No Corps, No Flex Diff, No City Limits, No Fixed Borders, No Storms, No Realistic Culture Spread. (There's more but I didn't write it all down)
I have a pattern for Tech research that I've used for awhile but with the addition and realignment, I abandoned it for this game. I'm not the Tech Leader yet. If I get Sed Life 1st then I probably will have become the Leader.
JosEPh
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I agree. So which wonders and at what cost should the become do you think?
I like the new workers with strengths, but I think that maybe some are too strong. It's good that a gatherer or worker is no longer vulnerable to an aggressive pigeon, but I think that workers at strength 3 and armed workers at strength 4 is a little excessive. Could they be reduced to 2 and 3 respectively or given penalties against melee units and archers?
Thanks ls612 .
I almost forgot, in my new game (yes, I know - I'm going to try and actually play this one at least until the middle ages), I reached Sedentary Lifestyle just before 16,000BC, the AI around 21,500BC.
I would repeat my earlier comment about techs moving too quickly, after the stone tools workshop get all its bonuses. I would suggest increasing all the costs of the the techs on the Carving, Skinning, Naturotherapy, Petroglyphs line up until the end of the pre-historic era.
I almost forgot, in my new game (yes, I know - I'm going to try and actually play this one at least until the middle ages), I reached Sedentary Lifestyle just before 16,000BC, the AI around 21,500BC.
I would repeat my earlier comment about techs moving too quickly, after the stone tools workshop get all its bonuses. I would suggest increasing all the costs of the the techs on the Carving, Skinning, Naturotherapy, Petroglyphs line up until the end of the pre-historic era.
rightfuture
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 1,649
I agree with both of these ideas. Having people post milestones would give ideas for adjusting.
Maybe have people post saved games so that the modders can look at game balance?
As an FYI, the changes to give workers some defense will almost certainly mean that the AI no longer attempts to escort them even in places it reghards as dangerous, so they will now probably be even easier prey for actual military units (as opposed to animals which never used to enter borders anyway). As such it may have made matters worse for the AI relative to players, especially from ancient or so onward where the arbitrary escort the AI used to use in dangerous positions would tend to have average defensive strength for the era (now it will just be the worker unit's base strength). I suspect this will make the use of sniping no-nationality type units even more devestating against the AI than before.
