C2C Balance Thread
- Thread starter ls612
- Start date
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
New game SVN 3440.
Crime: 46 turns into new game Crime is increasing at +2/turn or so the Properties tab in the city screen says so.
But, the math of that screen does not add up. (see screenie)
Constant buildings sources: -20 turn
General property sources(population, decay): +18 turn
If my math still serves me -20+18=-2 Not +2. If the screen means something else then it's confusing as **ll.
And if pop is giving 5 crime/turn, (when it was once lowered to 3 a more reasonable #) a 2 pop city should not be generating 18 Crime a turn only 46 turns into the game. The 1st anti-crime building is Stoning. Stoning is not attached to the 1st tech in the techtree. So you can not fight crime until it becomes available.
Why does Crime need to start at game start? Crime was not Crime until Rules of Conduct/Law/Morals was given. Crime really should either start with the 1st Religion founded, Or 1st Military Tech Or with Code of Laws. I contend that it should Not start at game start. So what you have at game start is a build up of "crime" when there is no Crime cause there is no Law/Morals/code of conduct. And no means to combat it from game start.
JosEPh
Crime: 46 turns into new game Crime is increasing at +2/turn or so the Properties tab in the city screen says so.
But, the math of that screen does not add up. (see screenie)
Constant buildings sources: -20 turn
General property sources(population, decay): +18 turn
If my math still serves me -20+18=-2 Not +2. If the screen means something else then it's confusing as **ll.
And if pop is giving 5 crime/turn, (when it was once lowered to 3 a more reasonable #) a 2 pop city should not be generating 18 Crime a turn only 46 turns into the game. The 1st anti-crime building is Stoning. Stoning is not attached to the 1st tech in the techtree. So you can not fight crime until it becomes available.
Why does Crime need to start at game start? Crime was not Crime until Rules of Conduct/Law/Morals was given. Crime really should either start with the 1st Religion founded, Or 1st Military Tech Or with Code of Laws. I contend that it should Not start at game start. So what you have at game start is a build up of "crime" when there is no Crime cause there is no Law/Morals/code of conduct. And no means to combat it from game start.
JosEPh
Yeah, that display bug is annoying. The actual property calculations are correct though, you have -100 crime total. It is 4 crime per pop point, so you should have -20 + 8, or -12 crime a turn. With decay, that total you have seems reasonable, so I think it's only a display issue. AIAndy should fix that when he gets back.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
The Palace should reduce your crime by -20 per turn. So you do have something fighting crime at the start of the game.
Studies in primate behavior has shown that even chimps have some basic morality. In a test they have food set up to where a tray can be taken away from another chimp if one chimp pulls the rope towards him. Thus making the first chimp mad. However if the keeper moves the food from the first chimp to the second chimp then the first chimp will not get mad at the second chimp because the keeper moved it. Thus chimps at least know "intent" even though the outcome is the same. This can be analogous to humans murdering someone to accidentally killing someone. The outcome is the same but the intent is different.
It is not really a display bug, just inaccuracy in its estimation.
The number in brackets is the exact amount that got added last turn.
The list of things in the popup only considers a subset of the things influencing crime, especially it does not consider propagation from plots to the city.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
@Hydro,
I'll just say this, I still think there should be no Crime accumulation until a Tech triggers it.
Disclaimer: These are My Opinions and should be treated as such, "opinions". Please read this in this light and do not take personal jabs at me because I've stated them.
Opinion:
I still feel that the "level" of crime added by many bldgs is still too high. I'll never use a +10 Crime giving building unless someone has a gun to my head. And those bldgs that give such High levels are useful for what? The Brothel is good for what? 2 Esp pts? Ugh!
Opinion:
Harbors and Riverports should not give +5 Crime but a lesser amount. In fact both these lines should have a graded increase as you build more of the chain were the top builds have a +5. When you get harbors for the 1st time in the game the timeframe dictates that they were not a High source of Crime. Maybe by the time triremes become available there was some and the harbors and the same for river ports could correspond with shipping improvements.
Opinion:
I'm basically not happy with the way crime is implemented. No Crime giving bldg, I feel, should start off giving +5 Crime. The only line that does it right I think is the Trails/Roads/etc chain, +1, then +2, etc., for each upgrade.
Reminder and Opinion:
If you remember Hydro when you 1st put Crime in I asked if Crime was going to become the Main focus of the mod. And you said No it was just an enhancement. But now that
has been added into the crime giving buildings, besides unhappiness, I feel the Mod is now controlled by Crime. It has become Center Stage and most everything now hinges off of it. Pollution and disease will soon, and are in fact doing so now, compound this dominance in the Mods gameplay. I don't feel comfortable with this dominance because it overpowers the rest of the gameplay of the Mod.
JosEPh
I'll just say this, I still think there should be no Crime accumulation until a Tech triggers it.
Disclaimer: These are My Opinions and should be treated as such, "opinions". Please read this in this light and do not take personal jabs at me because I've stated them.
Opinion:
I still feel that the "level" of crime added by many bldgs is still too high. I'll never use a +10 Crime giving building unless someone has a gun to my head. And those bldgs that give such High levels are useful for what? The Brothel is good for what? 2 Esp pts? Ugh!
Opinion:
Harbors and Riverports should not give +5 Crime but a lesser amount. In fact both these lines should have a graded increase as you build more of the chain were the top builds have a +5. When you get harbors for the 1st time in the game the timeframe dictates that they were not a High source of Crime. Maybe by the time triremes become available there was some and the harbors and the same for river ports could correspond with shipping improvements.
Opinion:
I'm basically not happy with the way crime is implemented. No Crime giving bldg, I feel, should start off giving +5 Crime. The only line that does it right I think is the Trails/Roads/etc chain, +1, then +2, etc., for each upgrade.
Reminder and Opinion:
If you remember Hydro when you 1st put Crime in I asked if Crime was going to become the Main focus of the mod. And you said No it was just an enhancement. But now that
has been added into the crime giving buildings, besides unhappiness, I feel the Mod is now controlled by Crime. It has become Center Stage and most everything now hinges off of it. Pollution and disease will soon, and are in fact doing so now, compound this dominance in the Mods gameplay. I don't feel comfortable with this dominance because it overpowers the rest of the gameplay of the Mod.JosEPh
@Hydro,
I'll just say this, I still think there should be no Crime accumulation until a Tech triggers it.
Disclaimer: These are My Opinions and should be treated as such, "opinions". Please read this in this light and do not take personal jabs at me because I've stated them.
Opinion:
I still feel that the "level" of crime added by many bldgs is still too high. I'll never use a +10 Crime giving building unless someone has a gun to my head. And those bldgs that give such High levels are useful for what? The Brothel is good for what? 2 Esp pts? Ugh!
Opinion:
Harbors and Riverports should not give +5 Crime but a lesser amount. In fact both these lines should have a graded increase as you build more of the chain were the top builds have a +5. When you get harbors for the 1st time in the game the timeframe dictates that they were not a High source of Crime. Maybe by the time triremes become available there was some and the harbors and the same for river ports could correspond with shipping improvements.
Opinion:
I'm basically not happy with the way crime is implemented. No Crime giving bldg, I feel, should start off giving +5 Crime. The only line that does it right I think is the Trails/Roads/etc chain, +1, then +2, etc., for each upgrade.
Reminder and Opinion:
If you remember Hydro when you 1st put Crime in I asked if Crime was going to become the Main focus of the mod. And you said No it was just an enhancement. But now that
JosEPh
I don't really feel that way at all, in fact I will often totally ignore crime, and just build Town Watchmen to control the worst of it. Crime doesn't really become an issue until Tribalism, as before then your city is small enough and the Palace has a large enough buffer to keep Crime negative. But I haven't felt that Crime takes the game over, unless the AI sends ten thieves to my territory to cause problems.
I understand where Joseph is coming from with this. One has to keep a constant check on Crime throughout the entire game basically, in a way one does not have to do with anything else.
Research one checks every few turns when done with whatever path one has set.
City Growth, including Happy and Health, is checked every time a city grows or something changes the growth rate of ones cities.
Units are of course moved around a lot but it's mainly the attacking forces one needs to keep constant check on. The main bulk are usually defending units that are just set as stationary units.
The same goes for all other aspects of the game except Crime. Sure, in the start one can basically ignore it but once one gets to the more detrimental effect crimes one has to keep a constant check on it and keep it under certain levels.
Crime might not be the main focus of the game but it's a very big part and something one needs to concentrate on all the time.
Cheers
Research one checks every few turns when done with whatever path one has set.
City Growth, including Happy and Health, is checked every time a city grows or something changes the growth rate of ones cities.
Units are of course moved around a lot but it's mainly the attacking forces one needs to keep constant check on. The main bulk are usually defending units that are just set as stationary units.
The same goes for all other aspects of the game except Crime. Sure, in the start one can basically ignore it but once one gets to the more detrimental effect crimes one has to keep a constant check on it and keep it under certain levels.
Crime might not be the main focus of the game but it's a very big part and something one needs to concentrate on all the time.
Cheers
Remind me next month to give my spiel about a property interface mechanism...
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@JosEPh_II
Unlike the other properties (ex.
,
,
, etc) there are no tags (that I know of) that can give +/- crime at a tech to a building. This would be a tag I would be happy to have though.
Pollution for the most part is implemented and done. I may add or tweak some in the future but its more or less finished.
Unlike the other properties (ex.
,,, etc) there are no tags (that I know of) that can give +/- crime at a tech to a building. This would be a tag I would be happy to have though.Pollution for the most part is implemented and done. I may add or tweak some in the future but its more or less finished.
@JosEPh_II
Unlike the other properties (ex.
Pollution for the most part is implemented and done. I may add or tweak some in the future but its more or less finished.
Those would be simple enough to make, although not before the freeze. I'll take a crack at that after V26 is released.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Cool! Thanks!
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I personally feel crime is too easy to stay on top of. Real world cities deal with crime. That simple. No matter how much a nation does to get on top of it its always going to be there to some degree. I definitely don't mind how central it is because we're building the mod to be more than a wargame but also as a challenge to simply run the nation well.
In fact, I've been thinking... I think we need an Oppression factor to represent the negative side of being too 'in control' of your nation. This is classically civilization's big problem and quandry. If you take too much control over the people's behaviors, you become an oppressive tyrant and threaten the stability of your empire. If you police too much you end up with a depressed police state. Obviously, civic choices will dictate whether you're going to have more trouble from crime vs having more trouble with oppression.
Such a system would really bring home where we are in modern times, striving hard to find a way to eliminate crime entirely while allowing the people to FEEL as if they are completely free. There is no greater tyranny than a control one has over another that the other doesn't realize has been exerted.
I think that if we make it a challenge to stay in balance between negative options to find the greatest positive, we will have the strongest gameplay possible.
In fact, I've been thinking... I think we need an Oppression factor to represent the negative side of being too 'in control' of your nation. This is classically civilization's big problem and quandry. If you take too much control over the people's behaviors, you become an oppressive tyrant and threaten the stability of your empire. If you police too much you end up with a depressed police state. Obviously, civic choices will dictate whether you're going to have more trouble from crime vs having more trouble with oppression.
Such a system would really bring home where we are in modern times, striving hard to find a way to eliminate crime entirely while allowing the people to FEEL as if they are completely free. There is no greater tyranny than a control one has over another that the other doesn't realize has been exerted.
I think that if we make it a challenge to stay in balance between negative options to find the greatest positive, we will have the strongest gameplay possible.
I posted in the Tag Requests thread how you can do that.@JosEPh_II
Unlike the other properties (ex.
In general I recommend using the Domestic Advisor to keep informed about the amount of crime in each city (You have to customize it and add the crime and crime change to the displayed columns).
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I would actually like to see Crime as an Option at Game start. I just feel that too many Good bldgs and Bldg chains have been Greatly diminished by Crime being added to them. So in essence parts of the game/Mod that I've used for years are now almost "untouchable" for me. Parts that I looked forward to being able to build to enhance my empire and it's strength. Now they are like a wormy apple. May look good on the outside but not so good once you bite into it.
"My perception and opinion" is that Crime when it was introduced was too heavy handed. Some "balance" is starting to show up now, the Law School/Firm IMHO was desperately needed. And more anti Crime bldgs are still needed if some of the Crime giving builds are not reduced in their Crime giving strength. There is much more Crime giving than there is crime reducing. Which in turn for me (please note I said "for me"), makes me, for my style and game pleasure, to Avoid building things that I once upon a time I did build and enjoyed building.
And all these added maint., inflation, etc. gold reducing measures has done the same thing, "for me", with Other lines that were once favorites. I still have to grit my teeth to build Libraries and it's sibling's in the Research lines. The "cost" out weighs the benefit (beakers received) almost 90% of the time. Personally I'm about to the point to start modifying the XML files to reduce the cost or buff the benefit, so I can build Libraries in all my cities again.
JosEPh
"My perception and opinion" is that Crime when it was introduced was too heavy handed. Some "balance" is starting to show up now, the Law School/Firm IMHO was desperately needed. And more anti Crime bldgs are still needed if some of the Crime giving builds are not reduced in their Crime giving strength. There is much more Crime giving than there is crime reducing. Which in turn for me (please note I said "for me"), makes me, for my style and game pleasure, to Avoid building things that I once upon a time I did build and enjoyed building.
And all these added maint., inflation, etc. gold reducing measures has done the same thing, "for me", with Other lines that were once favorites. I still have to grit my teeth to build Libraries and it's sibling's in the Research lines. The "cost" out weighs the benefit (beakers received) almost 90% of the time. Personally I'm about to the point to start modifying the XML files to reduce the cost or buff the benefit, so I can build Libraries in all my cities again.
JosEPh
*cough* REV?
As I've said before, try building more Town Watchmen. They get -10 crime for free (well, not really, they cost 1
per turn), and if you get them 5 free XP, they can get another -5 crime (riot control II). The City Guard/Town Watchman line of units are IMO the best way to handle crime, as well as giving city defense, which is always good.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Grrr... You can't build Town Watchmen Until they become available! And after you get them it takes up to 4 to effectively reduce Crime in a major city so that you're not plagued by the added "crap" that the Crime Bldgs like Arson, give.
The whole time frame before them (TW) is unbalanced. You can not counter the crime effectively. You can slow it down but keeping it under "control" or even reducing it requires that you avoid many, many, buildings that you could/used to use before it was introduced.
Now buildings (ex. Trade post) that gives Crime have become a prereq for previously non crime associated bldg (ex. Cobbler). So if you don't build the trade post line you now can't build Cobbler and another resource is non usable. Cuts down on the incessant cry "too much gold" for that crowd. This also cuts down on the build list bloat that players complain about, but still clutters the build list because they are of no use (for me). So I'm using only 2/3rds or less of the available bldgs in the Mod for these very reasons.
JosEPh
The whole time frame before them (TW) is unbalanced. You can not counter the crime effectively. You can slow it down but keeping it under "control" or even reducing it requires that you avoid many, many, buildings that you could/used to use before it was introduced.
Now buildings (ex. Trade post) that gives Crime have become a prereq for previously non crime associated bldg (ex. Cobbler). So if you don't build the trade post line you now can't build Cobbler and another resource is non usable. Cuts down on the incessant cry "too much gold" for that crowd. This also cuts down on the build list bloat that players complain about, but still clutters the build list because they are of no use (for me). So I'm using only 2/3rds or less of the available bldgs in the Mod for these very reasons.
JosEPh
TWs are available at Masonry. However, it turns out that it is possible to increase/decrease property growth at techs using the Expression System, so that may be another option.
Also, how is your new game going?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@JosEPh_II
How big do your cities get when you reach the start of the Ancient Era? Also how many cities do you normally have at that point? Unless you are taking over enemy cities you should not have that many cities yet since you can only spread one Tribe at a time.
How big do your cities get when you reach the start of the Ancient Era? Also how many cities do you normally have at that point? Unless you are taking over enemy cities you should not have that many cities yet since you can only spread one Tribe at a time.
