Chewing gum in class? That'll be detention AND a fine

[Joecoolyo]

So, this is the part where say - yes it does.

First - Of course it stops them. Not everyone naturally. But it shouldn't be hard to imagine how speeding went without speeding tickets.
Second - Baaaad comparison, because you only get speeding tickets when caught. It isn't so hard to catch someone when sitting right in front of you in class.

I fail to see how catching someone has to do with anything. You don't get in trouble in class if you aren't caught as well, I can't tell you how many people use their cell phone during my classes even though when caught they lose the phone.

As for the speeding, even with a hefty fine, kids are morons and they'll speed again because it's convenient.

I don't know how to argue this any further, since both our claims are rather baseless without any facts. Dunno if there are any studies done about the effect of money on deterrence.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

You know, I chew gum quite a bit. This is because my mouth tends to dry out easily and then I get sores in it and that means I need to get medicine (this awful pasty stuff) so I'm able to eat without pain. The gum helps keep saliva moving. Hard candies work too. And it's a lot cheaper than the medicine.

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

You know, I chew gum quite a bit. This is because my mouth tends to dry out easily and then I get sores in it and that means I need to get medicine (this awful pasty stuff) so I'm able to eat without pain. The gum helps keep saliva moving. Hard candies work too. And it's a lot cheaper than the medicine.

Be glad you don't go to that nightmare of a school then!

 

[jtb1127]

I fail to see how catching someone has to do with anything. You don't get in trouble in class if you aren't caught as well, I can't tell you how many people use their cell phone during my classes even though when caught they lose the phone.

Teachers here don't care about either. It's APS so it's no B-more, but they don't care about cellphones unless it's excessive. I never saw any phones get taken in high. And gum?

 

[cav scout]

I really can't see this policy having any positive impacts at all. Best case scenario, it forces children to "behave," i.e. obey authority figures unquestionably. Don't chew gum? Yes, sir! Don't carry "flaming hot" chips? Yes, sir! Don't vote this year? Yes, sir!

Absolutely sickening.

What is wrong with having sensible rules in the classroom and enforcing them? Our society seems to have stopped teaching children the basic ideas of good citizenship and accountability for ones actions. The result is a bunch of selfish kids who act out whenever they want without any regard for others. If a kid is going to be disruptive and harm the learning experience of the other children then shouldn't they face some consequences?

Basic discipline doesn't create unquestioning automatons. It helps a young inherently self-centered person grow up to be a responsible adult- someone who has learned to master their impulses, who respects the rule of law and who cares about the rights of others.

 

[Crezth]

You know, I chew gum quite a bit.

That'll be $500, you anarchist!

What is wrong with having sensible rules in the classroom and enforcing them?

Sensible rules like "sit up straight?"

Our society seems to have stopped teaching children the basic ideas of good citizenship and accountability for ones actions.

Really? And I suppose the punitive measures of these schools would be evidence of that?

The result is a bunch of selfish kids who act out whenever they want without any regard for others. If a kid is going to be disruptive and harm the learning experience of the other children then shouldn't they face some consequences?

You're twisting my words. I'm not asking for chaos in the classroom, I'm just questioning these specific methods and rules. Your example here is like somebody opposing the PATRIOT Act being responded to with "Oh so I suppose you'd just like terrorists to destroy everything?!"

Basic discipline doesn't create unquestioning automatons.

I never said it did, but you will find that the best discipline is often well-reasoned in its execution. Asking people to accept rules or suffer just because is fundamentally not conducive to the types of critical minds we should be trying to encourage the development of today.

It helps a young inherently self-centered person grow up to be a responsible adult- someone who has learned to master their impulses, who respects the rule of law and who cares about the rights of others.

Thanks, Hobbes!

Seriously, though, I'm not trying to argue there aren't positive externalities of good discipline, and young kids learning to make peace with the establishment. What I'm saying is the framework within which they make peace with that establishment is altogether better if it is predicated on a groundwork of well-reasoned discourse rather than "what I say goes." And there are a number of otherwise good rules that you can't fully rationalize at the drop of a hat - and not many teachers would have the patience to do so anyway - but rules like "you must sit up straight" or "you're not allowed to use the restroom during class time" don't have a good justification beyond "preserving order." In neither case is it about being socially responsible or respecting the rights of others; it's about learning to sit down, shut up, and do as your told. Which is fine if you're planning on raising a generation of wage slaves and soldiers, but not exactly so useful if you're looking for people to push the envelope.

 

[downtown]

That five dollars could mean the difference between having a lunch or going hungry, especially with some school districts making stupid rules about not bringing in outside lunches. If you're hungry in school it's harder to concentrate. This I know from experience. If there is a test that day it could do worse and get poorer grades.

Not likely. Most of the kids at these schools qualify for Federal free or reduced lunch prices. Nobody is going hungry at Nobel.

Well, I'm upper-middle-class, and I don't even have that kind of spending money.

Really? You don't have 5 dollars in spending money? Remember, the big fines don't kick in until one gets *dozens* of detentions, which is close to 50 demerits over a period of time. Demerits also go away.

You have to be *really bad* to get that many. These schools do not have students racking up those kind of point totals for non-disruptive offenses.

Just because money is involved, doesn't mean it makes it seem more serious, or works like a deterrent. Kids get expensive speeding tickets all the time, yet that doesn't seem to stop them from speeding.

I'd be pretty surprised if that's true actually.

You catch my drift. This kind of tyrannization seems to fit in well with the whole "school is an industry thing." There seems to me to be a kind of prevailing wisdom that kids are so lacking in structure that they rot for want of it, but one seems to wonder how far is too far. Specifically, what are we teaching kids about the world if we punish them for chewing gum? No explanations or anything? No debate, no second-thoughts, no question as to the actual damage that chewing gum can cause - the school's word is law. Damnit, we should be raising critical thinkers, leaders of tomorrow, not a bunch of sheeple that will bend to the whim of the nearest authority figure!

Kids are given explanations for all the rules. Kids are asked not to chew gum because the schools uses a bare-bones janitorial staff to keep costs low, and gum makes the school messy. The school has very strict rules about discipline because they are running a very ambitious curriculum (complete with in-depth critical thinking type assignments), and since students typically enter these schools substantially behind academically, they *cannot* afford to waste any time.

These students typically come from pretty rough neighborhoods in Chicago, and nearly all are on the federal lunch program bubble. If they're coming from CPS (Chicago Public School) middle school programs, they're also likely coming from fairly violent environments. You cannot have the kind of academic freedom you all want without disciplined classroom management. I've taught inner city kids in a system with these strong expectations for discipline, and in systems without them. In Louisiana, I screamed all day and broke up fights. In Chicago, I taught kids punk rock.

Strong structure, when reinforced with a great curriculum and positive reinforcement of good behavior, gives you a lot more freedom.

Really? And I suppose the punitive measures of these schools would be evidence of that?

Well, Nobel Schools graduates more students and sends more students to college than CPS schools. This stuff unquestionably works for them.

It's not a perfect system...teacher turnover at these schools is really high, and a lot of kids end up dropping out because they can't handle the rigors and discipline system....it isn't for everybody. But it has been a great vehicle to get at risk kids back on the right path.

 

[Crezth]

Kids are given explanations for all the rules.

Really?

Kids are asked not to chew gum because the schools uses a bare-bones janitorial staff to keep costs low, and gum makes the school messy.

Why do kids have to sit up straight?

The school has very strict rules about discipline because they are running a very ambitious curriculum (complete with in-depth critical thinking type assignments), and since students typically enter these schools substantially behind academically, they *cannot* afford to waste any time.

These students typically come from pretty rough neighborhoods in Chicago, and nearly all are on the federal lunch program bubble. If they're coming from CPS (Chicago Public School) middle school programs, they're also likely coming from fairly violent environments. You cannot have the kind of academic freedom you all want without disciplined classroom management. I've taught inner city kids in a system with these strong expectations for discipline, and in systems without them. In Louisiana, I screamed all day and broke up fights. In Chicago, I taught kids punk rock.

Strong structure, when reinforced with a great curriculum and positive reinforcement of good behavior, gives you a lot more freedom.

There's quite a point that can be made for that, but I was never arguing against structure as such, just the execution of power and discipline in a way that doesn't seem to do anything except exert power.

Now, if you're arguing that draconian rules and punishments are conducive to a better educational environment, you're free to do so - your own experience certainly seems consistent with that view - but it's not really an issue I care to discuss.

Well, Nobel Schools graduates more students and sends more students to college than CPS schools. This stuff unquestionably works for them.

And you figure it's because of the stronger classroom discipline?

It's not a perfect system...teacher turnover at these schools is really high, and a lot of kids end up dropping out because they can't handle the rigors and discipline system....it isn't for everybody. But it has been a great vehicle to get at risk kids back on the right path.

What happens to those kids, out of curiosity?

 

[downtown]

Really?

Yup. I can't speak for every school that might employ systems like these, but I know the Nobel schools in Chicago do. I've taught there, and I had an ex-girlfriend teach there too.

Why do kids have to sit up straight?

It's a best practice from the KIPP people (one of the major innovators in urban education). An upright posture and "tracking" the speaker (either with eye contact or in some classrooms, with their fingers) help facilitate engagement and retention. You actually listen better when you're sitting up straight. Plus, it's harder to fall asleep that way.

And you figure it's because of the stronger classroom discipline?

It's not the only reason...teachers at Nobel are better educated than their CPS peers, but I think it is one of the top 3 biggest. Classroom Management is the single biggest practical obstacle in inner city teaching. Not having to worry about that frees up so much more energy for actual academics.

What happens to those kids, out of curiosity?

They either find a different charter school to attend, or they go back to their regular neighborhood CPS school.

 

[azzaman333]

Why can't the kids just follow the rules, making it a non-issue?

 

[Zelig]

Really? You don't have 5 dollars in spending money? Remember, the big fines don't kick in until one gets *dozens* of detentions, which is close to 50 demerits over a period of time. Demerits also go away.

I wouldn't have had $5 in spending money for most of highschool - I never had a job until the summer before grade 12, and didn't get any kind of allowance from my parents.

It's a best practice from the KIPP people (one of the major innovators in urban education). An upright posture and "tracking" the speaker (either with eye contact or in some classrooms, with their fingers) help facilitate engagement and retention. You actually listen better when you're sitting up straight. Plus, it's harder to fall asleep that way.

Not particularly good for your spine though.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/11/061127112844.htm

 

[W|M]

Why can't the kids just follow the rules, making it a non-issue?

Because kids know that rules shouldn't dictate everything.

 

[cav scout]

Sensible rules like "sit up straight?"

Seems sensible enough to me. There are plenty of non-verbal ways to act disruptively to get attention or disrespectfully to challenge the teacher's authority. We've all seen it in the classroom when we were kids and i'm sure the teachers here know it when they see it.

I think it's acceptable to empower a teacher with the ability to control his classroom and call out a student that is being clearly disruptive.

Really? And I suppose the punitive measures of these schools would be evidence of that?

These are charter schools that are bucking the lack-of-discipline trend in public school.

Here is some anecdotal evidence for you: At my son's middle school their isn't any discipline in the classroom. Students don't have to pay attention during the lesson and are permitted to socialize with each other instead of listening to the lecture. The student desks are actually arranged in groups of 4 facing each other instead of being oriented towards the teacher. Students can come and go out of the classroom any time as they please. And the best part- there is a telephone at the back of the classroom for students to call their parents at any time.

Apparently this is the one school of thought in education- by giving children the freedom to do as they please it makes learning less stressful and something they can do on their own terms. My observation was that it was a madhouse with not too much learning going on but i'm just a lay person so I must have missed the point.

You're twisting my words. I'm not asking for chaos in the classroom, I'm just questioning these specific methods and rules. Your example here is like somebody opposing the PATRIOT Act being responded to with "Oh so I suppose you'd just like terrorists to destroy everything?!"

Huh? I wasn't twisting your words at all, I was making my own point about the consequences of the lack of discipline in schools. Your words went something like "best case scenario" the students in these school would never question authority and never vote. Sounds like you are the one making the exaggerated points

I never said it did, but you will find that the best discipline is often well-reasoned in its execution. Asking people to accept rules or suffer just because is fundamentally not conducive to the types of critical minds we should be trying to encourage the development of today.

Who said that the specific reasons for the strict rules weren't clearly articulated to the kids?

Also, there needs to be a foundation established before a young person can truly learn to think critically.

 

[azzaman333]

Because kids know that rules shouldn't dictate everything.

Yeah, because chewing gum in class is a right that no one should ever be able to take away from you.

 

[Tani Coyote]

If it's a public school, then the state should have full control over it, and just about everything therein should be free. Things such as fines should ultimately be up to the voters - and they will say no, as most kids can't exactly pay it.

If this was a private school, well it'd be fine and dandy, but I don't like the idea of being able throw fines on behavior - kids goof of and make simple mistakes. Fines are for actual criminals, not people who are young and still have the ability to enjoy their lives.

 

[Camikaze]

I came to this thread thinking it'd be about chewing gum specifically, which I think is an odd thing to punish. I don't know how American charter schools work, but this doesn't really seem like something that would be great for a kid's development. Not behaving properly results in being deliberately held back? Also, what if parents can't afford to pay? This costs misbehaving kids out of the schools, sure, but only poor misbehaving kids. And there would be a link between parents who cannot afford to pay, and students who are behaving badly (if their home environment isn't as good). There is a nice incentive to get parents to take an active interest in their child's discipline issues, but it's a rather misguided incentive.

However, I do like the general idea of collecting fees for infractions very much.

 

[Tani Coyote]

I came to this thread thinking it'd be about chewing gum specifically, which I think is an odd thing to punish. I don't know how American charter schools work, but this doesn't really seem like something that would be great for a kid's development. Not behaving properly results in being deliberately held back? Also, what if parents can't afford to pay? This costs misbehaving kids out of the schools, sure, but only poor misbehaving kids. And there would be a link between parents who cannot afford to pay, and students who are behaving badly (if their home environment isn't as good). There is a nice incentive to get parents to take an active interest in their child's discipline issues, but it's a rather misguided incentive.

Precisely why this is ridiculous. Never mind kind of sickening as a whole that money is what motivates parents to get involved. ...though such parents would be short-sighted anyway - an educated child basically repays all the money you invest in them and can take care of you later in life. Children are, in financial terms, a good investment for the future - that should be enough of an incentive to pay mind to their education!

Never mind, these are public schools. They're not supposed to be run for profit. No, putting a fancy "charter" in front of you shouldn't mean anything - if you're public, you are run by the state, which means ultimately the state is in charge.

And if the state's in charge of this scam, it sounds kind of like it's time for a change in the state.

Wait, this is Illinois isn't it? I know the state has a negative reputation for corruption, but this has just gotten insane.

However, I do like the general idea of collecting fees for infractions very much.

Hahahaha.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I fail to see how catching someone has to do with anything. You don't get in trouble in class if you aren't caught as well

Yes, but

It isn't so hard to catch someone when sitting right in front of you in class.

, I can't tell you how many people use their cell phone during my classes even though when caught they lose the phone.

I don't doubt it, being rebellious is cool. loosing your cell phone for a while is not that bad really. But I wonder, is it still cool when the kid uses up its pocket money for wanting to be "rebellious"? I think it would quickly feel rather stupid.

As for the speeding, even with a hefty fine, kids are morons and they'll speed again because it's convenient.

Er...so? This shows nothing whatsoever.

I don't know how to argue this any further, since both our claims are rather baseless without any facts. Dunno if there are any studies done about the effect of money on deterrence.

So, dude, you are seriously arguing that people don't mind fines?
Come on man... We really shouldn't need a study for that kind of basic stuff.

I don't know how American charter schools work

downtown explained it on page two or page one.

 

[downtown]

If it's a public school, then the state should have full control over it, and just about everything therein should be free. Things such as fines should ultimately be up to the voters - and they will say no, as most kids can't exactly pay it.

Well, one of the big critiques of charter schools is that they aren't accountable to voters. They are not run by an elected school board...these schools have an unelected board of directors/CEO. The mayor could take their charter away, but that's about it.

Also, what if parents can't afford to pay?

That does happen, and if the parents actually show up to the school to talk about it, the school is pretty good at working something out. It isn't really about the money...it's about holding kids, and their families, accountable for behavior in school. The school found that without charging kids, they couldn't get kids or their parents to take in school discipline seriously. I know that if parents actually show up and attend all the meetings, the higher fees can get waived.

This costs misbehaving kids out of the schools, sure, but only poor misbehaving kids. And there would be a link between parents who cannot afford to pay, and students who are behaving badly (if their home environment isn't as good). There is a nice incentive to get parents to take an active interest in their child's discipline issues, but it's a rather misguided incentive.

In a regular or suburban school setting, I would agree that the disparity between who can pay and who can't might be a real issue. At these schools though, nearly everybody is poor. If a family really can't pay it, the school would waive the fee, but that student is still gonna get it at home!

Never mind, these are public schools. They're not supposed to be run for profit.

And they aren't. The fees aren't a profit. I don't think any of the schools picked up more than 30,000 in a single year, and they go to offset overtime costs for detention.
[/QUOTE]

 

[pesgores]

Chewing gum is kind of a stress reliever, it's cool as long as there's no loud noise.