Chewing gum in class? That'll be detention AND a fine

[MantaRevan]

Maybe it's just because I'm kinda a hippy, but this entire chain looks like a bunch of bull. I mean, it's private, so nothing to do about it, but I hope they feel the consequences of their irrationality and arrogance.

 

[downtown]

You know, I taught in one of these schools, and I think it's a far cry from a prison....ESPECIALLY compared to the other educational opportunities variable to poorer, urban kids.

I taught a Rock Band class after school there, which was available even to students with discipline problems. The Nobel Schools have produced nationally regarded slam poets, and have a very ambitious arts program. They do expect a lot of discipline during the day, but it's difficult to overcome the massive achievement gap these kids have without all of that structure. If you've got to read on a 10th grade level and you're only at a 6th grade, you just don't have time to waste.

If you want to talk about ankle chains, check out the opportunities you have if you're poor, black or brown in Chicago, don't have a GED, and can't read.

 

[Joecoolyo]

No, this is stupid. A lot of kids don't have a sound concept of money, even when they're in high school (I know I don't!), so this will only affect the parents.

 

[MantaRevan]

Exactly. You are basically taxing parents for the poor behavior of their children.

 

[downtown]

No, this is stupid. A lot of kids don't have a sound concept of money, even when they're in high school (I know I don't!), so this will only affect the parents.

That sounds like a useful skill to teach kids, don't you think?

 

[Joecoolyo]

That sounds like a useful skill to teach kids, don't you think?

Yeah, but that's not going to happen by taking away their parent's money.

 

[Zelig]

Are detentions effective discipline for kids in the first place?

I only have experience teaching kids sports and tutoring math, where discipline is easy/unnecessary.

 

[downtown]

Yeah, but that's not going to happen by taking away their parent's money.

A single detention is only five bucks...that's low enough for it to come out of even a poor student's pocket. Upping the ante for 200 bucks is a way of getting the parent's involved for constant misbehavior

Are detentions effective discipline for kids in the first place?

I only have experience teaching kids sports and tutoring math, where discipline is easy/unnecessary.

They *can* be, depending on the detention, and the rest of the classroom management strategy.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

No, this is stupid. A lot of kids don't have a sound concept of money, even when they're in high school (I know I don't!), so this will only affect the parents.

You did a really poor job in explaining why it is stupid. It is supposed to directly only effect the parents. And after further considerations I think that this is a good way to do it. As soon as money comes into play, I think there is a psychological effect at work that significantly increases the seriousness of the situation and makes parents more aware and concerned - even if it are only 5 dollars (which then could be subtracted from pocket money of the child btw). So this system targets the core of behavioral problems with students - bad parenting / lack of parental attention.
Naturally, such a fining system as to be checked on and can be abused. That is a no-brainer. But so can every measure of punishment. And this one seems to shield good results.

 

[W|M]

A single detention is only five bucks...that's low enough for it to come out of even a poor student's pocket. Upping the ante for 200 bucks is a way of getting the parent's involved for constant misbehavior

That five bucks might not seem like much, but if the school is extremely strict and gives out detentions easily, they add up quickly. Poorer children (who would suffer more under these fines) are also more likely to misbehave, due to poor children often being afflicted with parents that are addicted to alcohol or drugs, or are going through stressful divorces, or who are just plain violent and cruel; They are more used to violent and dangerous crime in their areas, and thus more likely to not find it as morally wrong as richer kids - and thus also probably are more troublesome on an academic level.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

That five dollars could mean the difference between having a lunch or going hungry, especially with some school districts making stupid rules about not bringing in outside lunches. If you're hungry in school it's harder to concentrate. This I know from experience. If there is a test that day it could do worse and get poorer grades.

 

[bombshoo]

In cases where the student is doing actual damage (writing on walls, sticking gum in locks), fines are okay. I'm not for it just being used as a form of punishment though.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

What I find frustrating is that it seems the rules are for rather petty things like not sitting up straight. If I was at that school I might be given a lot of fines simply because I cannot sit up straight for more than a few minutes at a time.

I would like to see the full list of rules to see how much of them are silly.

 

[Joecoolyo]

A single detention is only five bucks...that's low enough for it to come out of even a poor student's pocket. Upping the ante for 200 bucks is a way of getting the parent's involved for constant misbehavior

Well, I'm upper-middle-class, and I don't even have that kind of spending money.

No idea what that means for family's who are poorer than mine is.

You did a really poor job in explaining why it is stupid. It is supposed to directly only effect the parents. And after further considerations I think that this is a good way to do it. As soon as money comes into play, I think there is a psychological effect at work that significantly increases the seriousness of the situation and makes parents more aware and concerned - even if it are only 5 dollars (which then could be subtracted from pocket money of the child btw). So this system targets the core of behavioral problems with students - bad parenting / lack of parental attention.
Naturally, such a fining system as to be checked on and can be abused. That is a no-brainer. But so can every measure of punishment. And this one seems to shield good results.

Just because money is involved, doesn't mean it makes it seem more serious, or works like a deterrent. Kids get expensive speeding tickets all the time, yet that doesn't seem to stop them from speeding.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Just because money is involved, doesn't mean it makes it seem more serious, or works like a deterrent.

So, this is the part where say - yes it does.

Kids get expensive speeding tickets all the time, yet that doesn't seem to stop them from speeding.

First - Of course it stops them. Not everyone naturally. But it shouldn't be hard to imagine how speeding went without speeding tickets.
Second - Baaaad comparison, because you only get speeding tickets when caught. It isn't so hard to catch someone when sitting right in front of you in class.

 

[Crezth]

I really can't see this policy having any positive impacts at all. Best case scenario, it forces children to "behave," i.e. obey authority figures unquestionably. Don't chew gum? Yes, sir! Don't carry "flaming hot" chips? Yes, sir! Don't vote this year? Yes, sir!

Absolutely sickening.

 

[bhsup]

THey (most of them) damned well better not vote yet. They're in high school and probably not 18. It would be highly illegal.

 

[GenMarshall]

That's outrageous! Back in my day the teacher made you spit out the gum. Detentions are mainly reserved for repeat offenses. A fine is ridiculous (a detention for first time offense is also excessive).

 

[dominatr]

Punishment isn't always the best way to keep kids in line. Help them realize that good behavior makes good character and lead by example. Remember, a teacher is a teacher not a police officer or a babysitter.

 

[Crezth]

THey (most of them) damned well better not vote yet. They're in high school and probably not 18. It would be highly illegal.

You catch my drift. This kind of tyrannization seems to fit in well with the whole "school is an industry thing." There seems to me to be a kind of prevailing wisdom that kids are so lacking in structure that they rot for want of it, but one seems to wonder how far is too far. Specifically, what are we teaching kids about the world if we punish them for chewing gum? No explanations or anything? No debate, no second-thoughts, no question as to the actual damage that chewing gum can cause - the school's word is law. Damnit, we should be raising critical thinkers, leaders of tomorrow, not a bunch of sheeple that will bend to the whim of the nearest authority figure!