Chick-Fil-A Backs Down Then Backs Up

In states where it still is completely legal for homophobes like Dan Cathy to fire employees for that very reason?

That is really what this issue is all about. CFA now wants to expand into states where homosexuals actually do have rights, which continue to be denied to them by the Republicans in Congress.

You keep saying this as if "Homosexuals having rights" requires this anti-discrimination law. Why? I, for one thing, think that a right to work for someone is hardly a right, but is the businessowners decision, whatever his logic or reasoning for that position.
 
If that's the approach, try pointing out that you also oppose laws that prohibit such discrimination on the basis of religion or race or sex or whatever as well. Then nobody can give you crap about gay rights specifically. (This specific sort of right.)
 
In states where it still is completely legal for homophobes like Dan Cathy to fire employees for that very reason?

That is really what this issue is all about. CFA now wants to expand into states where homosexuals actually do have rights, which continue to be denied to them by the Republicans in Congress.

I hear the allegations yet I do not see any facts to back them up.

Might as well post a link to a Google search. I don't actually care. But if you dudes are gonna argue about something that you can quantify then you should quantify it rather than this verbose IS NOT / IS SO / IS NOT / IS SO.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0723/080.html

A few excerpts:

The turnover among Chick-fil-A operators is a low 5% a year. Among hourly workers turnover is 60%, compared with 107% for the industry

Chick-fil-A, the corporate parent, has been sued at least 12 times since 1988 on charges of employment discrimination, according to records in U.S. District Courts. Aziz Latif, a former Chick-fil-A restaurant manager in Houston, sued the company in 2002 after Latif, a Muslim, says he was fired a day after he didn't participate in a group prayer to Jesus Christ at a company training program in 2000. The suit was settled on undisclosed terms.

Only 12 times in 24 years? And thats the total number of cases, not successful cases. Doesnt sound like a lot to me, and if Form were right, you'd see hundreds of such cases easily found. Not, for example, like in comparison to Dennys that lost a 54 million dollar discrimination class action lawsuit in the 1990s.

Nah, Form's shadowy allegations are simply unfounded under the light of truth and fact.
 
If that's the approach, try pointing out that you also oppose laws that prohibit such discrimination on the basis of religion or race or sex or whatever as well. Then nobody can give you crap about gay rights specifically. (This specific sort of right.)

I think I have before (And was infracted for racism initially;)) I believe you have the right to hire/fire whoever the heck you want for any reason you want/
 
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0723/080.html

Not, for example, like in comparison to Dennys that lost a 54 million dollar discrimination class action lawsuit in the 1990s.

What's standard in the industry?

I think I have before (And was infracted for racism initially;)) I believe you have the right to hire/fire whoever the heck you want for any reason you want/

Yeah. It's just a suggestion to help keep people off your back about things that aren't the case.
 
I guess I didn't make that clear enough the first time;)

Honestly, I don't see how anti-discrimination laws work anyway. If I really wanted to not hire someone because they were black, I could easily come up with a BS reason anyway.
 
A few times, yeah, probably. If you do it consistently, the pattern will emerge. We'd see the same BS reason systematically not disqualifying white applicants, or a disproportionate applicant:hire ratio between races or whatever other criteria you're discriminating with. It's a lot more obvious than you might imagine.
 
Sure it could be "Obvious" but then you get a PC trap. I mean, what if all the white workers in a company suck? I mean, that's statistically unlikely, sure, but then if you fire them you could fear a lawsuit?

That's not the basis of my argument though. Property rights are. Fundamentally you have no right to force me to hire someone just because I hired someone else.

Now, I'm not defending the kind of jerks that would hire someone over someone else based on race. I would boycott any business that made their decisions of who to hire based on race. Excluding religious organizations, I'd say the same thing about sexual orientation.

But it shouldn't be illegal.
 
You keep saying this as if "Homosexuals having rights" requires this anti-discrimination law. Why? I, for one thing, think that a right to work for someone is hardly a right, but is the businessowners decision, whatever his logic or reasoning for that position.

When you get a job, you will see this sign.

 
That's not the basis of my argument though. Property rights are. Fundamentally you have no right to force me to hire someone just because I hired someone else.
If you are running your business as a state-chartered entity (such as a corporation or limited liability company), you are getting benefits from the state (limited liability, for one) and, as a tradeoff, the state sure as hell does have a right to demand that you not be a god damned bigot in how you run your business.
 
What's standard in the industry?

Sounds like something you could go find out. But lets put it into perspective. There are over 1600 Chic-Fil-a locations all across the USA, and probably somewhere in the neighborhood of at least 15,000 employees.

Given that, if Formaldehyde is correct in his allegations of this corporation being as bigoted, hateful, etc. etc. etc. dont you really, and I mean REALLY, think there would be more than a single discrimination lawsuit every two years on average?

I mean come on.

Just on a whim I tried a quick google, and here is one I found. http://retailindustry.about.com/b/2...awsuits-increase-rapidly-dis-smt-bkw-dltr.htm

The number of complaints filed by the Equal Employment Opportunities Commission (EEOC) on behalf of employees who claimed they were the victim of some type of discrimination rose 7% between 2009 and 2011. That amounted to 99,947 lawsuits in 2011

You can find plenty of lawsuits examples for Walmart, Burger King, and various other employers. But you dont find much by googling the same for Chic-Fil-A.

Its simply not quite as evil as Form alleges. In fact, its not even remotely close. This place simply isnt the bogeyman that many are trying to make it out to be.
 
If you are running your business as a state-chartered entity (such as a corporation or limited liability company), you are getting benefits from the state (limited liability, for one) and, as a tradeoff, the state sure as hell does have a right to demand that you not be a god damned bigot in how you run your business.

and politicians like Moreno will decide if you're being a bigot after he tells you to shut up if you want to work in his city
 
Sounds like something you could go find out. But lets put it into perspective. There are over 1600 Chic-Fil-a locations all across the USA, and probably somewhere in the neighborhood of at least 15,000 employees.

Given that, if Formaldehyde is correct in his allegations of this corporation being as bigoted, hateful, etc. etc. etc. dont you really, and I mean REALLY, think there would be more than a single discrimination lawsuit every two years on average?

I mean come on.

Just on a whim I tried a quick google, and here is one I found. http://retailindustry.about.com/b/2...awsuits-increase-rapidly-dis-smt-bkw-dltr.htm

You can find plenty of lawsuits examples for Walmart, Burger King, and various other employers. But you dont find much by googling the same for Chic-Fil-A.

Its simply not quite as evil as Form alleges. In fact, its not even remotely close. This place simply isnt the bogeyman that many are trying to make it out to be.

Bah, I didn't care, but you've made me curious.

I checked out your links, from both your earlier post and your last post.

In the about.com article, like you said, Walmart and Burger King have faced some specific discrimination suits.. They also listed Chrysler, Disney, Dollar Tree, and Hallmark.

Chrysler's cited lawsuit was about racial discrimination. I'm pretty sure that's illegal in every state.

Walmart's and Hallmark's cited lawsuits were related to the ADA, the claimants were disabled.

Dollar Tree's cited lawsuit was not related to discrimination, it was about fair labor practices.

Disney's and Burger King's cited lawsuits were about religious discrimination, filed by women that claimed that their religious freedoms were violated when they were not allowed to wear a hijab, or a skirt instead of pants, respectively.​

Is the topic discrimination in general, or descrimination based on sexual orientation? We're not going to learn anything about the latter by comparing it to other types of discrimination.

Here are a few interesting snippets from the Forbes article.

Loyalty to the company isn't the only thing that matters to Cathy, who wants married workers, believing they are more industrious and productive.

Family members of prospective operators--children, even--are frequently interviewed so Cathy and his family can learn more about job candidates and their relationships at home. "If a man can't manage his own life, he can't manage a business," says Cathy, who says he would probably fire an employee or terminate an operator who "has been sinful or done something harmful to their family members."

The company might face more suits if it didn't screen potential hires and operators so carefully. Many Chick-fil-A job candidates must endure a yearlong vetting process that includes dozens of interviews.

The extensive vetting makes it relatively unlikely for an employee to be fired because of his sexual orientation simply because he's less likely to be hired in the first place. If he somehow gets through that vetting, (almost certainly because he was closeted) that Cathy guy explicitly says that he'd fire someone for sinful behavior. I'll bet you two bottles of whiskey that being gay is on that sin list.


Also on a whim I made a map using the one I posted on the first page and another from the Chick-fil-A website. Excuse the ugliness, it's not worth making it pretty.



The red states have laws against employment discrimination based on sexual orientation. In the green states it's perfectly legal to fire or not hire someone based solely on their sexual orientation. There are 184 stores in states where Chick-fil-A could be taken to court for such discrimination. There are 1379 stores in states where victims of discrimination have no legal recourse. If we're very generous and assume that all of the new stores opened since then were in the red states, the percentage of red state stores goes from 11% to 25%.


So what we're looking at here is a company that strongly suggests that they wouldn't hire someone they found to be gay and then says straight-up that they'd fire an employee found to be gay. And in at least 75% of their stores, that is perfectly legal.

Now, I'm not asserting that Chick-fil-A illegally discriminates against gay employees. I am only asserting that Chick-fil-A said it discriminates against gay employees, and that they can't be sued for doing that in at least 75% of their stores.

What's that thing about evidence and absence?


(I'm still wondering what the bible says about running a business.)
 
Berzerker said:
and politicians like Moreno will decide if you're being a bigot after he tells you to shut up if you want to work in his city

Next thing you know those damn politicians will be forcing me to hire blacks.
 
I hear the allegations yet I do not see any facts to back them up.
What facts are those?

That most states do not have laws prohibiting firing someone for being a supposed homosexual?

That Republicans in Congress continue to vote against laws that would prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation?

That Dan Cathy and much of the management of CFA are obviously homophobic for supporting homophobic organizations? That many fundamentalist and evangelical Christians have quite similar views? That CFA goes out of their way to hire and retain fundamentalist and evangelical Christians in their company who share those views? That their hiring practices are highly unconventional and actually show repeated discriminatory practices towards those who don't share their wacky views, or at least pretend to do so?

Nah, Form's shadowy allegations are simply unfounded under the light of truth and fact.
The "light of truth and fact" again shows that your own "shadowy allegations" are disingenuous at best.

"I mean come on."
 
Thats not really analogous to what Moreno did at all.

Also, good points Lucy.

Moreno is a coward. Not big surprise he couldn't force it on the real issues.
 
and politicians like Moreno will decide if you're being a bigot after he tells you to shut up if you want to work in his city
I don't have a problem with this happening to state-chartered entities. Lose the state protection of limited liability and I would be sympathetic.
 
Moreno is a coward. Not big surprise he couldn't force it on the real issues.
Why is Moreno a coward? And what does that second sentence even mean?
 
A true defender of libertyfreedom would force Chick-fil-A to hire gays only.
 
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