Chinese stability survey

[iOnlySignIn]

As for barbarian foes:

We can give China those foes if we spawn Gaul/Germania style barbarians and direct them towards China.
Change the Great Wall's effects so that barbarians are allowed to push into Chinese territory. Problem solved.

So if people want to change the effect of the Great Wall, what should it be?

Agree with everything you said about Korea/Japan/Thai/Khmer.

As for barbs though, if we are opposed to Independents, we should spawn Natives, instead of Germans in Central Asia, LOL. The historical trend is that barbarians migrate west across Eurasia, not east.

The Great Wall does not need to be changed. We can just spawn some Natives instead of Barbs. To represent the Xiongnu for example we can spawn hordes of Native Horse Archers with March + Mobility promotions. If they move west to Europe, hell they've simple become the Huns! In general I like the AI of the Natives, especially Impis in South Africa. They are *VERY* good at harassment. Very annoying for my England.

However, perhaps the Himeji Castle should be nerfed a bit. IMHO it completely obsoletes the Great Wall - if barbs cannot pillage my improvements, they really are just free experience points for my troops, since I can engage them whenever and however I wish. In fact, I think China should always rush Korea just to get Buddhism to build the Himeji Castle. Best military wonder in game.

Himeji Castle + Walls and Castles in every city = ignore enemy units. Sit back. Wait till they split up and slaughter them piecemeal.

Himeji Castle > Great Wall.

Himeji Castle > Russian UP + half of Viking UP.

All hail the mighty Himeji Castle.

 

[JujuLautre]

Did you test the Himeji Castle ?

If it is the same as the one I took from a mod one time, then it does not prevent Pillage, just make it generate no plunder gold.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

If it is the same as the one I took from a mod one time, then it does not prevent Pillage, just make it generate no plunder gold.

If that's the case then it's as good as nothing. Anyway, when I build the Himeji Castle it prevented enemies from pillaging altogether. Perhaps the AI avoided pillaging because it generates no gold?

In general I feel the East Asian wonders need a rebalance. Himeji Castle would be OP if it prevents pillaging, but near useless if it does not. Terracotta Army is quite useless too, as +50% GG rate hardly makes a difference. Porcelain Tower is hard to balance as well (the "Domestic Trade Routes treated as overseas" doesn't seem to work).

I've come up with a comprehensive rebalance plan:

(1) Great Wall
- Prevents Barbarians from entering cultural borders;
- +50% Maintenance cost in this city (to represent that the Great Wall requires maintenance throughout its history);
- Obsoletes with Rifling;

(2) Himeji Castle
- Double gold generated from pillaging;
- Free Walls and Castles in all cities;

(3) Terracotta Army
- +5 Hammers;
- Free Drill I promotion for all units built in this city;
(Note: This is a minor version of Qin Shi Huang's Industrious - Protective traits, and comparable to The Colosseum)

(4) Porcelain Tower
- 1 Artist slot, 1 Scientist slot;
- +1 Gold from Artists and Scientists in all cities;
- Obsoletes with Communism;

(5) Forbidden Palace
- 1 Free Merchant;
- Reduces maintenance cost of nearby cities.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

If that's the case then it's as good as nothing. Anyway, when I build the Himeji Castle it prevented enemies from pillaging altogether. Perhaps the AI avoided pillaging because it generates no gold?

In general I feel the East Asian wonders need a rebalance. Himeji Castle would be OP if it prevents pillaging, but near useless if it does not. Terracotta Army is quite useless too, as +50% GG rate hardly makes a difference. Porcelain Tower is hard to balance as well (the "Domestic Trade Routes treated as overseas" doesn't seem to work).

I've come up with a comprehensive rebalance plan:

(1) Great Wall
- Prevents Barbarians from entering cultural borders;
- +50% Maintenance cost in this city (to represent that the Great Wall requires maintenance throughout its history);
- Obsoletes with Rifling;

(2) Himeji Castle
- Double gold generated from pillaging;
- Free Walls and Castles in all cities;

(3) Terracotta Army
- +5 Hammers;
- Free Drill I promotion for all units built in this city;
(Note: This is a minor version of Qin Shi Huang's Industrious - Protective traits, and comparable to The Colosseum)

(4) Porcelain Tower
- 1 Artist slot, 1 Scientist slot;
- +1 Gold from Artists and Scientists in all cities;
- Obsoletes with Communism;

(5) Forbidden Palace
- 1 Free Merchant;
- Reduces maintenance cost of nearby cities.

I like the idea of Natives as an alternative to Barbarians & Independents.
But uh, it's going to raise some eyebrows when you see
proto-Mongol Xiongnu Ulan Bator building an Ikhanda and pumping out Impis & Dog Soldiers towards China.

Free Walls & Castles is already kind of useless considering the bias
towards offense in Civ4 and also how RFC makes lightning wars of critical importance.

I also think that if people want to challenge China, then yeah, Great Wall has to go, just like it did with Rome. Or change the effect.
In critical analysis of the Great Wall though, it was not a useful defensive structure, period.
Rather, it served as an effective way of relaying messages to central command points and ensured rapid responses to incursions.
Here is my pitch for a revised Great Wall:

Great Wall
-All units built in all cities gain a free Sentry promotion
-1/2 movement cost within cultural borders (stackable with Engineering)
-Obsoletes with Radio

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I like the idea of Natives as an alternative to Barbarians & Independents.
But uh, it's going to raise some eyebrows when you see
proto-Mongol Xiongnu Ulan Bator building an Ikhanda and pumping out Impis & Dog Soldiers towards China.

The whole point of using Natives instead of Independents is so that we don't give then any cities. There is to be no Native city near China so they aren't building anything. If we give them cities they are effectively the same as an Always War Independent.

Free Walls & Castles is already kind of useless considering the bias
towards offense in Civ4 and also how RFC makes lightning wars of critical importance.

Castle gives Trade Route, Espionage, and Culture. I'd consider that more useful than enemies unable to get gold from pillaging my improvements.

Also, I disagree about Walls/Castles being useless in combat. Civ IV favors giant stacks and lightning wars, sure, but defense can be just as effective as offense, especially since AI fumbles with Siege Weapons. How does your Russia not loose a city against the Mongols, for example?

I also think that if people want to challenge China, then yeah, Great Wall has to go, just like it did with Rome. Or change the effect.
In critical analysis of the Great Wall though, it was not a useful defensive structure, period.
Rather, it served as an effective way of relaying messages to central command points and ensured rapid responses to incursions.
Here is my pitch for a revised Great Wall:

Great Wall
-All units built in all cities gain a free Sentry promotion
-1/2 movement cost within cultural borders (stackable with Engineering)
-Obsoletes with Radio

China does not need land units with Sentry, given how far its culture already reaches out into enemy territories. Also, on land you have Spies.

If we swap a sufficient number of Barb units with Natives, GW's function is already reduced. I like the idea you propose, but the best effect of GW is funneling Barbarians into Persia & India so they get destabilized. If you take away that effect you need to rebalance Persia/India as well.

Oh and if you do that (movement speed increase), it should naturally obsolete with Railroad.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

What are your thoughts, Leoreth?

We've actually been talking about this practically on the day you went on vacation.

 

[Leoreth]

First off, it wasn't vacation (except the holiday week), I wish it would've been.

Haven't read the whole thread already, but the wonders suggestion looks pretty good. I like the Porcelain Tower idea especially.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Haha, thanks! I'm rather proud of my Porcelain Tower idea myself. In fact I already implemented my East Asian Wonder Rebalance Package and I had tons of fun with it as both China and Japan.

Also, just a repost of another idea in this thread that I'm rather proud of:

Here's a simple idea:

(1) New UP (Mandate of Heaven): +100% (or +150%) Golden Age length

(2) New UHV (instead of 100 units): Experience 4 Golden Ages by 1800

Tweak the Chinese AI to be more likely to burn Golden Ages.

This will

(A) Simulate China's historical rises and falls

(B) Improve the stability of China as it gets less anarchy and has better economy

(C) Offers interesting challenges in GA timings wrt the Four Great Inventions and Four Cathedrals UHVs

(D) Synergies with Taixue UB and specialist economy

(E) Encourage late game Communism (should you go for Domination/Space Race) since the type of improvement that benefits most from a Golden Age is the Watermill/Windmill, and Corporations do not benefit from GAs.

(F) Prevents late game China from getting overpowered or underpowered (as is the case with current UP, especially in Human hands).

Also, to balance, make Mausoleum at Halicarnassus require Zoroastrianism (which will make it the *second* Zoroastrian wonder after their shrine, woohoo) so that Human China player cannot abuse GAs.

Edit: Or not. Human Greece can build *both* the Pantheon and the Hagia Sophia. So why not let China abuse their GAs in the same way Greece abuse their GPs? Would be fun.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Here is my Confucian wonder rebalance.

http://tinyurl.com/7j9uh2x

Log:

(1) Terracotta Army:
- Requires Pottery;
- Same cost as the Flavian Amphitheatre (300);
- +6 Hammer;
- Free Drill I promotion for all units built in this city;
- Obsoletes with Assembly Line.

(2) Porcelain Tower:
- Requires Banking;
- 1.5 times the cost of Basilica di San Marco (600);
- +2 Gold from Scientists and Artists in all cities;
- 1 Scientist slot, 1 Artist slot;
- Obsoletes with Communism.

(3) Forbidden Palace:
- Requires Divine Right;
- Cost unchanged: 800 with no resource bonus;
- Government center;
- 1 Free Merchant;
- Does not obsolete.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

It's been awhile now but I'd like to hear what you think about all the proposed balance changes (replacement of 100 units UHV, Natives moving south on China, that awful Foreign stability drop which you said was not caused by ancient civs dying) & justified expanded stability map.

 

[alpav]

Ok guys wow. I was playing as Korea on SVN and China was stable/shaky with all of historical territories under control. Mongols spawned and vassalized them and then China collapsed. Later they respawned and regained their territories. My advice, don't change China!

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

If by ALL historical territories, you mean:

-Corea
-Tibet
-North Vietnam
-Mongolia
-Xinjiang
-Kazakhstan
-Manchuria
-Russian Far East

Then your assessment would be correct.
However, you were playing AS Corea, so technically,
China did not have historical territory.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

-Tibet
-Mongolia
-Xinjiang
-Kazakhstan
-Manchuria
-Russian Far East

Currently all these areas are completely worthless though:

(1) Little/no Corporation resources (keep in mind that Silk Route does not spread to China even if China controls Central Asia);

(2) No flat river tiles for Levee + State Property goodness;

(3) No coast = No trade, no GLH goodness;

I wouldn't even bother with them.

Manchuria is somewhat useful with 2 Coal, and if you build a National Park amid all the forests, but that is near end game for China.

Currently China's best strategy is to go full out Navy and wipe out Korea, Japan, and Thailand, and settle America starting from its west coast. In other words, play like Japan.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Well, the Arabs get to settle vast tracts of bad/poor quality land via the stability map.
I do understand that most of the listed areas are bad quality-wise, but it would be nice to have the option to go into those areas.
I just wanted to make a point on alpav's post that not all of China's historical territory was under its' control in the Corea game he was playing.

 

[civ_king]

Currently all these areas are completely worthless though:

(1) Little/no Corporation resources (keep in mind that Silk Route does not spread to China even if China controls Central Asia);

(2) No flat river tiles for Levee + State Property goodness;

(3) No coast = No trade, no GLH goodness;

I wouldn't even bother with them.

Manchuria is somewhat useful with 2 Coal, and if you build a National Park amid all the forests, but that is near end game for China.

Currently China's best strategy is to go full out Navy and wipe out Korea, Japan, and Thailand, and settle America starting from its west coast. In other words, play like Japan.

Settling the US West Coast is totally Chinese, you don't remember the vast Chinese cities set up by Zheng He after his fleet sailed over the Pacific in their flying treasure ships?

 

[Leoreth]

Finally managed to read up on the last few pages, and these are my main observations:

China:

• I agree that Chokonu are useless currently. The best solution imo is not to make them strong against cavalry, but let them be available earlier (Metal Casting + Construction?) and boost their defensive capabilities. So they'll help you to hold your cities, but not to throw the Mongols out.
• Taixue + Representation is a problem, although Rep gives instability after 3 cities so you have to pay for its benefits. Rep is still OP in general, though. I'm currently working on a civic redesign plan that will address this. Maybe I'll lower its bonus to +2 science for a quick fix.
• Stability isn't really a problem, at least not on Monarch + Normal, which is what I balance for. I haven't seen any screenshot that shows the opposite (which was the original purpose of this thread). So no stability map expansion. If you have problems, maybe you're abusing Representation too much
• Replacing the unit goal with the Golden Age goal is a good idea
• I'm not sure what to do with the Chinese UP. I think the main problem is that an HI can use it to beeline & trade, while the AI usually doesn't focus on that. Actually I'd rather limit the Chinese capability of trading techs than nerf the UP.
• making the Chinese AI more likely to invest GP into GAs is a good idea too, but I don't know if I can do something about that (the AI seems to have problems with "saving" GP in general).
• I'll take a look at the sharp stability hit China suffers
• I'm considering to allow Chinese silk routes. The problem is that China will refuse to trade away its silk then.

India:
- yes, the UP needs a nerf, especially with all the food lying around
- it would be good if I could make the AI "waste" more resources doing religious stuff but I don't know if I can

Korea:
- could use a science and production buff, I couldn't apply that earlier because its AI tended to expand a lot then and it would make them too powerful. Now that they usually have only Seoul a buff is no problem

Japan:
- gets better starting units, at least for the AI

Mongolia:
- I hope I can balance that with curbing the snowball effect of China's UP.

Specialist Economy:
- appears to be too powerful for food rich civs, especially on slower game speeds. I don't really know what to do about this except applying arbitrary penalties.

Persia:
- making the Mausoleum Zoroastrian sounds good, I think I'll also spawn Sardes in Turkey and include it into the AI flip zone (the Median empire already stretched there so it's not too far off).

 

[alpav]

I meant all of modern day China plus some of siberia, mongolia and tibet prior to mongol spawn.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Ah, thank you for clearing up about that, alpav.

Leoreth, I have never run Representation before as China, so I'm not having stability problems because of it. The sharp Foreign drop was usually the biggest factor, but often, it is quite difficult to survive long enough to switch into the modern authoritarian/democratic end-game civics combo of choice.

My other concern is:
-Currently, Mongols stomp the Chinese on 600AD and the Chinese stomp the Mongols on 3000BC;
I would like to find the middle ground essentially,
where it could swing either way in both scenarios AND that when China respawns,
it's not reduced to like 4 cities like it normally is.

I still think a scripted collapse or bias towards collapse factors for the AI Mongols like with the Romans is in order for this to be possible. Because I do think Mongols deserve some buffs in some areas,
the first of which being Economy but where Mongolia currently stands,
that would just make mega-Mongols unbearable.

Also, do you think you could introduce a Mandate of Heaven regional mechanic for East Asia?
We already pretty much exclusively have the Reformation for Europe so I think it's a logical next step.

 

[Leoreth]

It's definitely possible to give AI Mongolia a different set of units depending on the scenario. Considering the different performances of China, that makes a lot of sense.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with the four cities on respawn?

For the Mandate of Heaven, I'm not sure where the point of it is from a game design POV.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

In a lot of screenshots I'm seeing, whenever China respawns, it just typically has Xian, and maybe 3 other cities.
Mongolia tends to keep much more of the rest of their spoils.
Of course, this wouldn't be a problem if they had a scripted collapse.

I'm just suggesting the Mandate of Heaven as well.
I wouldn't really know where to begin with the effect;
but it is a major thing in East Asian history and has traditionally
affected how China's neighbors perceive it and how China perceives it's neighbors.
Joseon postured as the successor of the Ming when it fell to the Manchus
and Japan adopted ideas via Neo-Confucianism & nationalism that it was the
new Chūgoku (Middle Kingdom) and that they held the Mandate of Heaven around the time of the Meiji Restoration.