Christian converts on trial in Turkey

CivGeneral said:
This is the stranges case of doublethink that I have seen. Whenever there is a case when a Christian suffers discrimination and persecution, the non-Christians, atheists, and secularists side with them. However whenever a Christian passes a gay marriage ban or says that a non-Christian, atheist, and secularists are going to hell, the non-Christians, atheists, and secularists are up in arms. :crazyeye:.
It's doublethinking to support your rights to be who you are, just because I'm not like you?
 
Peri said:
And just to be controversial would anti-Chrisitan threads draw more sympathy from posters here if Christianity was not served so badly by the postings of certain members?
Somehow, I would believe, given the general demographics of this forum, that anti-Christian threads would gain more sympathy if it was posted by a non-Christian. However if a Christian posted an anti-Christian article thread, the thread would not draw in sympahty and many of the non-Christians (including atheists and secularists) would just state "Oh he is just looking for sympathy".

Yoda Power said:
It's doublethinking to support your rights to be who you are, just because I'm not like you?
And this is where I see the striffe that I see that goes between the two Groups. Christians want things their way and non-Christians (atheists and secularists) want things their way. If there is a case that there is anti-Catholicism, anti-protestantism, or any anti-Christianity, the secularists, atheists, and non-christians join up with the Christians to ensure that they have the right to believe what they want to believe. However if a Christian wishes to pass a gay marriage ban based on his beliefs, then the secularists, atheists, and non-Christians cry out blood and rise up in arms because they "are forcing their religion down their throughts".
 
You have the right to hold and express your opinions but you do not have the right (even though you think you do) to force your views onto others especially when your views hurt others.
 
CivGeneral said:
And this is where I see the striffe that I see that goes between the two Groups. Christians want things their way and non-Christians (atheists and secularists) want things their way. If there is a case that there is anti-Catholicism, anti-protestantism, or any anti-Christianity, the secularists, atheists, and non-christians join up with the Christians to ensure that they have the right to believe what they want to believe. However if a Christian wishes to pass a gay marriage ban based on his beliefs, then the secularists, atheists, and non-Christians cry out blood and rise up in arms because they "are forcing their religion down their throughts".

The difference being, that what secularists often want is to let people do what they want.
 
Riffraff said:
I really regret the phrase about the state and rewriting history - gives the law loads of dimensions it doesn't have. Its really just against people saying that 600 jews got killed in the holocaust and not 6 million.

Just as an example, there was a recent court case trying to ban the phrase "honor and glory to the (weapons) - SS" , which the neo-nazis like having on their t-shirts. The court didn't ban it - emphasing that unpopular ideas are tolerated here


Now that the German government has released to huge amount of documents (6 buildings worth) that they have been keeping secret, there may not be any more reason for the anti-Holocaust laws.

The suspicions about it being fabricated may have been the result of these documents being kept away from the public eye. The Germans probably didn't want to have to deal with all the criticism when they came out of seclusion. So, we were see what happens. It will be interesting when we all get a look at them, they are said to be quite detailed.

Six buildings worth of filing cabinets is quite a bit of evidence.
 
Here is what the Turks are saying about the Pope's visit:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061122/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_pope_protest

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Protesters occupying building detained By BENJAMIN HARVEY, Associated Press Writer
Wed Nov 22, 12:08 PM ET



ISTANBUL, Turkey - Police on Wednesday detained about 40 members of a Turkish nationalist party who earlier had occupied one of Istanbul's most famous buildings, the Haghia Sophia, to protest the visit next week of Pope Benedict XVI.

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The protesters belong to the Great Unity Party, a far right-wing group that has previously staged demonstrations against the planned Nov. 28-Dec. 1 visit.

They entered the 6th century former Byzantine church and mosque, shouting "Allahu akbar!" — "God is great!" — and then knelt to perform Islamic prayers.

They also shouted a warning to Benedict: "Pope, don't make a mistake, don't wear out our patience."

A group leader read a statement saying Benedict had offended Muslims with his comments linking violence and Islam, but the reading was interrupted by police.

When the protesters refused to surrender, a policeman used pepper spray on them. Police later rounded up the protesters against a wall outside a door of the Haghia Sophia.

They were loaded into police buses and took them to a nearby police station for questioning, police said.

Benedict is scheduled to tour the Haghia Sophia, which is a source of religious sensitivity in Turkey. It was one of the world's greatest churches for more than 1,000 years, but was converted into a mosque after the conquest of Istanbul by Ottoman Turks in 1453. Today, the Haghia Sophia is a museum, and public religious ceremonies inside are forbidden.

There has been intense debate in Turkey about whether the pope will pray inside the Haghia Sophia, with some saying that doing so would be a political act and an attempt to reclaim its status as a great Christian church.

The Vatican played down the demonstration.

"I continue to consider these events sporadic and limited, and as such they do not put into question the substance and climate of the visit, which we expect will be serene," Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi told the ANSA news agency.

"These facts do not give rise to particular worries, although they do cause regret," he said. However, they are not a surprise since we know that there are groups who are not in favor of the pope's visit. But these are facts that should not be overestimated."

Turkey's Culture Minister, Atilla Koc, condemned the protest.

"I cannot approve a raid on a cultural center or a place of worship, whatever the reasons," he said. "It is an ugly incident."

Benedict's first trip to a Muslim nation comes at a time of heightened tensions between the West and Islam.

The Muslim world erupted in protest after Benedict delivered a speech in September in which he quoted a Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad as "evil and inhuman," particularly "his command to spread by the sword the faith."

Benedict has offered his regrets that his speech caused offense and has stressed that the quotes did not reflect his personal opinion. He has also expressed esteem for Islam.
 
And this is the newest from today:
Turkish Muslim wants Pope to say Islam peaceful By Gareth Jones and Selcuk Gokoluk
Thu Nov 23, 2:15 PM ET



ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey's top Muslim official said on Thursday Pope Benedict should state clearly during a planned visit to Turkey next week he believes Islam, like Christianity, to be a religion of peace.

Benedict infuriated Muslims worldwide in September with a lecture that appeared to portray Islam as an irrational religion tainted by violence. Benedict later expressed regret over the pain his remarks caused but stopped short of a full apology.

"I think the attitude the Pope should take is that neither Islam nor Christianity is a source of violence," said Ali Bardakoglu, who heads Ankara's Directorate General for Religious Affairs which controls Turkish imams and writes their sermons.

"If they ask me if Christianity has been the cause of violence, I would say no, that is not so ... We believe all prophets sent by God, from Moses to Jesus and Mohammad, are messengers of compassion," he told Reuters in an interview.

Violence committed in the name of religion was the fault of fallible and misguided human beings, he said.

"I believe the Pope shares this view and his saying this will be in the interests of all humanity," he said.

Bardakoglu, who meets the Pope next Tuesday at the start of the four-day visit, said in September Benedict must apologize for his remarks and should reconsider his trip to Turkey.

But he told Reuters it was now time to look to the future and said the Pope would receive a hospitable reception in the overwhelmingly Muslim country.

He said he would be happy to explain to the Pope the "unbreakable" link between reason and faith in Islam, citing the historic achievements of Islamic science and learning.

PROTESTS

Turkey plans tight security measures for the Pope, whose trip takes in the capital Ankara, the commercial and culture hub of Istanbul and the site where the Virgin Mary is believed to have lived and died near Izmir on the Aegean coast.

Bardakoglu said Turkey was a free country where people had the democratic right to protest.

"But any street protests will not reflect the mainstream hospitable attitude of Turkey," he added.

Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul, a pious Muslim, said he expected the Pope to give positive statements that would improve ties between Christians and Muslims.

"I believe it will create a new climate," Gul told Reuters.

"He may make some good statements, saying we have only one God although we have different religions. We have sympathy for each other and we should not exploit the differences in a negative way."

The Pope is due to hold talks during his visit with the Istanbul-based spiritual head of the world's 250 million Orthodox Christians, Patriarch Bartholomew, who has complained of property and other restrictions his church faces in Turkey.

Bardakoglu defended Turkey's treatment of its tiny Christian community and of other religious minorities.

"If the Pope says Christians in Turkey are mistreated, I will tell him that he has been seriously misinformed," he said.

"For example, we give support to Christians settling in our holiday resorts when they want to build churches. We say this is their natural right and this is guaranteed by laws," he said, referring to a growing number of Europeans retiring in Turkey.

Bardakoglu also signaled he was ready to tackle the Pope over Turkey's bid to join the European Union. Before becoming Pope, Benedict spoke out against Turkey joining the EU, saying it did not belong there because of its religion and culture.

"The European Union as a Christian club would pave the way for other similar groupings that would seriously hurt the cause of world peace. For that reason, I think it important that the EU be based on common values rather than religion," he said.

(Additional reporting by Paul de Bendern in Istanbul)


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061123/wl_nm/pope_turkey_muslim_dc_1



I don't think the Pope will do this... do you?
 
Bugfatty300 said:
Why do I need to calm down? I wasn't specifically speaking of Denmark. There are plenty of other examples I am thinking of. Don't be so defensive.

There are some views that lead to hatred without overtly espousing them, whilst I don't agree to destroying rights of freedom of speech, I would agree with silencing people who publish neo nazi material that denies the holocaust, there is simply no reasonable justification for it other to incite hatred, whether you do so directly or indirectly, I don't think that's wise. Just as I don't think it's wise nor clever to mock any religions for the sake of making a point about freedom of speech; such freedoms always come with responsibility, if you cannot be responsible then like any child it's better to be seen and not heard.

Your country has a right to free speech but it also has a right of and from religion, if you despise someone for their religion and you make it well known then you are breeching those laws, just as if you claim that someone should follow your religion. Freedoms are fine but such freedoms need to adhere to all constitutional rights, no one has the right to incite hatred against either a religion a race or an idea, at least not under yours and my democracy. Freedom of speech is for grown ups who understand responsibility, and grown ups come in all ages and sizes.
 
Can you imagime if it was the other way round. Had a christian converted to islam in a christian nation. Oh wait it wouldn't mater.
 
Well, of course the top religious muslim official in Turkey would think the pope should do that.

If Chirac, not long before a visit to the US, implied that he felt the United States were a warmongering nation, american officials would be asking him to make himself clear on that issue before or during the visit.

Skad, in case you missed it, they're not being tried for having converted to Christianty (as we've seen happen in other muslim countries). They're being tried for "insulting turkishness" and "insulting Islam". (Not that such laws are GOOD, mind you - freedom of speech ideally would allow for both) - which certain Christians are perfectly capable of doing in the course of their preaching - we have enough of them right here on CFC.

So kindly quit misrepresenting the issue.
 
GoodSarmatian said:
They are not persecuted for being Christians, they are charged for degrading.
Islam.
Insulting a major religious group means trouble in any country.

No it doesn't! That is silly, it is done all the time!
 
Peri said:
You have the right to hold and express your opinions but you do not have the right (even though you think you do) to force your views onto others especially when your views hurt others.
I do feel the right to impose and force my views onto others and don't care if they hurt others. Now the point about my contribution and discussion is that I am not talking about myself, I am talking about the conflict between Christians and non-Christians, atheists, and secularists.
 
Katheryn said:
No it doesn't! That is silly, it is done all the time!
Very true christianity is insulted daily in America. Some of it is richly deserved while most is just for the sake of insulting.
 
CivGeneral said:
And this is where I see the striffe that I see that goes between the two Groups. Christians want things their way and non-Christians (atheists and secularists) want things their way. If there is a case that there is anti-Catholicism, anti-protestantism, or any anti-Christianity, the secularists, atheists, and non-christians join up with the Christians to ensure that they have the right to believe what they want to believe. However if a Christian wishes to pass a gay marriage ban based on his beliefs, then the secularists, atheists, and non-Christians cry out blood and rise up in arms because they "are forcing their religion down their throughts".

And I wonder if homosexuals were so persecuted whether particular Christians here would support or condemn them?
 
CivGeneral said:
I do feel the right to impose and force my views onto others and don't care if they hurt others.
I have to quote this because it highlights the difference between people like me and people like you.
 
skadistic said:
Very true christianity is insulted daily in America. Some of it is richly deserved while most is just for the sake of insulting.

Quite agree some of it is just childish, whilst religion deserves to have people criticise it, sometimes there is too much pointless argument, there are valid reasons to talk about religion, but on both sides people go too far. The whole religion thing is simply derailing good coherent policy and opinion either way.
 
Peri said:
And I wonder if homosexuals were so persecuted whether particular Christians here would support or condemn them?

You don't have the correct perspective.

Christians LOVE sinners, but they HATE sin.

It is not homosexuals as a group, it is the act of homosexuality.

And again, Christians do not want to condemn civil unions, or partnerships.

They want FAVORITISM to be shown to traditional heterosexual marriage because it is good for society in general.

There is a big difference.

One is an institution (gay marriage) and the other is God created people (sinners).

There is no where in the Christian New Testament that says that being gay is any more sinful than being adulterous or fornicating in a union outside marriage.

In fact, I am certain that adultery is 10 times worse than homosexuality.
 
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