Citizenship vs. hijabs/niqabs/burkas. Fight!

[Birdjaguar]

That's not the only way, that's a single way, and not a very effective one.

And what do you think is a better way? One of the businesses I run sells over $600,000 of alcohol a year of which two thirds are paid with CCs. Front line staff use drivers licenses to check age and identity. It is actually a very effective way to prevent CC fraud and not sell to minors.

As far as I'm concerned, "religious freedom" is irrelevant when talking about the freedom to do "things".

If a thing is allowed for a religious person, it needs to be allowed for any areligious person as well, freedom of religion doesn't give you bonus rights that nobody else has.

I would agree.

No, Visa/MC/AE merchant agreements typically prohibit asking for ID when making credit card purchases.

I can't speak to any experience other than my own. Ours don't prohibit it and we rang up $21 million in on premises CC sales last year. Our fraud/charge backs were less than $2,000. Our cashiers will continue to check IDs for those using CCs.

 

[Archbob]

How well can you function in a society like Canada or the USA while never showing your face? W

What if the cop pulls you over for speeding?
Checking ID for the credit card?
Being ID'd if you order a drink?
Driver's license test
I could see a a legitimate reason a workplace would not hire you if you are masked all the time, they can't tell its you thats entering their corporate building.

There are many other things that I could see where covering your face is really not practical

I don't see the reason that you would not be able to wear it for the swearing in ceremony(well, I can, because they need to make sure its you and all) but I guess showing to a female officer in private is OK. But I wouldn't hold it against any private business that didn't want to make accomodations for you like that.

I get asked for Photo ID all the time for credit cards, especially at smaller stores. Its generally not illegal.

 

[Arwon]

I don't believe I've ever been IDed for using my credit card. That's... odd.

 

[Yeekim]

The woman under question said she "wanted to show her commitment to her country by becoming a citizen".

I'd have to question the extent of her professed commitment, if she refuses even such a simple gesture of good will.

Would anyone be willing to accept a promise from someone who refuses to look them in the eye or hides one's expression while giving it?

Also, it is nice and all that she is willing to forego the veil for taking ID picture - but for that ID picture to be any practical use, she should be willing to drop her veil for any subsequent ID-check as well. Somehow I feel as this might become a problem for her...

 

[NovaKart]

Refusing to show the face does seem like a real rejection of the society she is choosing to join. It would limit her interaction with most of the population, men not in her family and women who don't meet with her in a private place.

 

[Traitorfish]

It's symbolic. You don't go to an interview in boxers - you meet the potential employer's standards and wear a suit. You don't go to your neighbour's house naked - you meet your neighbour's standards and wear pants. These might seem like arbitrary things, and they are, but that's life.

Symbolic of what, though, is the question? All you've give us so far is something about everyone in Canada wearing a perpetual rictus grins, which sounds a little bit made up. So what's left seems to be a symbolic capitulation to European clothing norms, and it's not at all clear why that should be a condition of citizenship.

Like, I get the knee-jerk. To people who aren't used to face-coverings, it seems weird. Some of the customers at my workplace wear niqabs, and it can be a bit awkward, albeit as much because these women usually don't speak a lot of English. Faces are important, everyone agrees with that: Muslim women cover their faces precisely because the face is important. But there's no clear line from "that makes me uncomfortable" to "that is incompatible with Canadian identity". If this was some individual idiosyncrasy, perhaps somebody with a facial disfigurement who was not comfortable exposing their face, would we even be talking about it? It seems to me that it's only because we associate this specific sort of face-covering with "not-Canada" that it becomes an issue.

Refusing to show the face does seem like a real rejection of the society she is choosing to join. It would limit her interaction with most of the population, men not in her family and women who don't meet with her in a private place.

How so? I understand that a lot of the women who wear the niqab or hijab probably do limit their interaction with people outside of their family, but that isn't because they cover their faces. You can't force your citizens to be sociable, can you?

 

[galdre]

I don't think that such an obvious symbol of the oppression of half the population of a region should be accepted as normal. Just because someone has been conditioned to think that her/his own shackles are being worn by choice does not mean others should not remove those shackles.

 

[Flying Pig]

I agree. I'm holding a bra-burning party at mine tomorrow if you want to join in - BYOB. I suppose we could also put ties on the pyre for good measure?

By the by, should prospective citizens be required to swear that they will spend a given amount of time outside their homes? Should there be mandatory trips to the pub and the like?

 

[Recon Rover]

I understand that a lot of the women who wear the niqab or hijab probably do limit their interaction with people outside of their family, but that isn't because they cover their faces. You can't force your citizens to be sociable, can you?

Firstly and most importantly, this individual is not a Canadian citizen yet.

Secondly, you can force citizens to interact with society through making voting a legal obligation for instance or requiring community service as a prerequisite to graduation.

Thirdly, it is entirely not my experience that women wearing the hijab limit their interaction with society, but it is with the niqab.

Finally, if you assert women are limiting their interaction outside of their family because of their religion and not their religious protocols, you're not making a worthwhile distinction.

 

[Zelig]

And what do you think is a better way? One of the businesses I run sells over $600,000 of alcohol a year of which two thirds are paid with CCs. Front line staff use drivers licenses to check age and identity. It is actually a very effective way to prevent CC fraud and not sell to minors.

A more effective way? Any type of machine-authenticated biometric. I'd abandon any type of human authentication as being too weak to be worthwhile - if it's not important enough for machine-measured biometrics, it doesn't really need authentication in the first place.

The false match rate of of humans with faces is simply too high in practice: When Seeing should not be Believing: Photographs, Credit Cards and Fraud

"This paper describes a field study designed to examine the utility of photo-credit cards by assessing the accuracy with which supermarket cashiers could identify whether the photographs on credit cards depicted the person tendering them. The results demonstrate that the task of matching the photograph to the shopper is much more difficult than might be expected, and that even under optimized conditions, performance is poor. It is concluded that the introduction of photographs on credit cards would have little effect on the detection of fraud at the point of sale."

I'd say checking driver's licenses for age/ID for alcohol sales is a very effective way of avoiding liability, not of avoiding selling to minors.

I can't speak to any experience other than my own. Ours don't prohibit it and we rang up $21 million in on premises CC sales last year. Our fraud/charge backs were less than $2,000. Our cashiers will continue to check IDs for those using CCs.

Ah, I just took a look at ours, we're not actually prohibited from asking for ID, just from requiring ID to accept the card where the PIN is correctly entered or the signatures match. So similar to SINs - we can ask for the number, but we can't refuse service if it isn't given.

Should there be mandatory trips to the pub and the like?

As a pub owner, I support this.

 

[El_Machinae]

How well can you function in a society like Canada or the USA while never showing your face? W

What if the cop pulls you over for speeding?
Checking ID for the credit card?
Being ID'd if you order a drink?
Driver's license test
I could see a a legitimate reason a workplace would not hire you if you are masked all the time, they can't tell its you thats entering their corporate building.

There are many other things that I could see where covering your face is really not practical

I don't see the reason that you would not be able to wear it for the swearing in ceremony(well, I can, because they need to make sure its you and all) but I guess showing to a female officer in private is OK. But I wouldn't hold it against any private business that didn't want to make accomodations for you like that.

I get asked for Photo ID all the time for credit cards, especially at smaller stores. Its generally not illegal.

Well, I'm going to be confident in saying that alcohol isn't going to be an issue.

I can see the need to show one's face, for a variety of legal reasons! It's a self-imposed handicap. Driver's license, over-18 arenas, banks, etc. But, imo, let the legal compulsions start there. The law is such a blunt tool. There's no need for force in this area. Her life is hard enough as it is, and there's no upside for us.

 

[REDY]

I think that covering faces on public places should be prohibited by default. It would solve many law suits and integration problems.

 

[warpus]

Symbolic of what, though, is the question?

Really? That's still a question? Well...

What's symbolic of you showing up to your neighbour's house with no pants or shirt on? It's a sign of courtesy when you get properly dressed when you walk over there for a visit, right? You would be disrespecting his house by doing otherwise, right? It's symbolic of a goodwill gesture - symbolic of your commitment of wishing to respect the place you're visiting - which you've been so graciously invited to.

It's not because it makes me uncomfortable, because it really doesn't. I have seen women in burqas here, maybe once or twice. I felt no discomfort.

 

[Zelig]

I think that covering faces on public places should be prohibited by default. It would solve many law suits and integration problems.

What if it's cold?

And/or what if my face is covered in hair?

 

[Farm Boy]

Her life is hard enough as it is, and there's no upside for us.

Providing an upside to her is in no way a goal of the kowtow.

 

[Traitorfish]

Firstly and most importantly, this individual is not a Canadian citizen yet.

The argument is that she is failing to demonstrate good citizenship, so whatever conduct of her is presumably demanded of all citizens.

Secondly, you can force citizens to interact with society through making voting a legal obligation for instance or requiring community service as a prerequisite to graduation.

But you cannot compel sociability. Past these really pretty limited baselines, people are within their rights to be total shut-ins, if they desire.

Thirdly, it is entirely not my experience that women wearing the hijab limit their interaction with society, but it is with the niqab.

But again, what's the cause and effect, here? Does the veil limit their ability to interact, or are they just not terribly interested in interacting with people?

Finally, if you assert women are limiting their interaction outside of their family because of their religion and not their religious protocols, you're not making a worthwhile distinction.

I'm not. In my experience, women who wear the niqab or burqa tend to limit their interactions with others because they are very traditional in their outlook and may not speak a lot of English, rather than because they feel religiously obliged to avoid interaction.

 

[Yeekim]

I think that covering faces on public places should be prohibited by default. It would solve many law suits and integration problems.

That's going a bit too far, imho.

The argument is that she is failing to demonstrate good citizenship, so whatever conduct of her is presumably demanded of all citizens.

Not really. In most countries, people can't be stripped of their citizenship no matter what. It doesn't follow that everyone should therefore be entitled to receive citizenship no matter what.

Like, I get the knee-jerk. To people who aren't used to face-coverings, it seems weird. Some of the customers at my workplace wear niqabs, and it can be a bit awkward, albeit as much because these women usually don't speak a lot of English. Faces are important, everyone agrees with that: Muslim women cover their faces precisely because the face is important. But there's no clear line from "that makes me uncomfortable" to "that is incompatible with Canadian identity".

I think the "incompatibility" bit is not necessarily her particular clothing preference, but total unwillingness to compromise in a situation that is likely to be repeated in future.

"I'd very much like to demonstrate my deep love and commitment to your country by becoming a citizen!"
"Great. Now, if you'd please remove your scarf for a moment and pledge..."
"No way. See you in court!"

 

[Zelig]

Not really. In most countries, people can't be stripped of their citizenship no matter what.

Ah, we can do that anyway.

Jason Kenney announces 3,100 people being stripped of citizenship for fraud

"Jason Kenney, the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, announced the new figures on Monday. He said officials were stripping 3,100 Canadians of their citizenship for fraud"

Blatant lying loses family its citizenship — but earns them a $63K bill from Canadian government

"Ottawa has stripped a Lebanese family of their Canadian citizenships — and handed them a $63,000 bill — after they were caught blatantly lying about living in Canada, part of a government crackdown on bogus citizens that could extend to thousands of cases."

Immigration reform allows Canada to strip citizenship

"A new law in Canada makes it possible for Canadian authorities to strip citizenship as a result of criminal activity."

 

[IglooDame]

I don't think that such an obvious symbol of the oppression of half the population of a region should be accepted as normal. Just because someone has been conditioned to think that her/his own shackles are being worn by choice does not mean others should not remove those shackles.

Who are you and why are you trying to disrupt my harem?

 

[Farm Boy]

Boy howdy with dangerous reasoning too. Malicious reasoning, I would daresay.