Civilization List

[T_F]

Well, that's what I meant. Mountains as tiles cities can use.
I think workable mountains should be either automatically available to all Dwarves immediately, or be a kind of UB that any city can build (not a Wonder or Project of any kind).

 

[xmen510]

We could also give the Dwarves a free combat upgrade that gives them the first defence for Hills for free. To represent their lifestyle of living in the Hills and Mountains. Like protective, but for Hills Defence instead of a Free Strike Bonus.

For unique Buildings for the Noldor: House of Finwe:

Flets?: +25% City Defence Bonus as your Units can take to the Tress with ease.

 

[Sengir]

Some comments, I've played as Kuriotates last night and I think It should be possible to limit Isengard to one city, though it would require some additional traits on the leader (at least adaptive), which makes sense as the leader is a pretty big guy. Isengard would be Neutral IMHO. Personally I would like to make most evil civs not evil by nature, but have a tendency to turn to evil (they are easier to corrupt, but not evil from the start).

The reason why I don't want to group the evil/neutral civs together is that from a gameplay point of view we need some kind of a balance between good (elves/edain) and evil. It is ok to tip the balance in favor of the good, as the shadow civs will probably be stronger powerwise, but we should at least have some choice between evil/neutral civs.

Also about Balrogs: I think we can keep them as extraordinary strong units (which they were), but they would be expensive to build (and wouldn't be build right out of the gate, but need a tech and a building, not sure which yet). They would not start as overly powerful, but get automatic experience just like heroes, albeit a tad slower. Anti-balrog promotions should also be available, so that a couple of units should have a decent chance to defeat one Balrog. If that's still to strong we could also limit the number of available Balrog by making them national units.
Most of the above goes for dragons as well.

About dwarves: They should be able to work mountains and their workers should probably be able to make passages through the mountains, after which dwarven units can pass through without problem (as fast as on roads), other units can pass through at a max of one move per turn. Passages outside dwarben culture would have a chance of collapsing per random event.

 

[T_F]

Some comments, I've played as Kuriotates last night and I think It should be possible to limit Isengard to one city, though it would require some additional traits on the leader (at least adaptive), which makes sense as the leader is a pretty big guy. Isengard would be Neutral IMHO. Personally I would like to make most evil civs not evil by nature, but have a tendency to turn to evil (they are easier to corrupt, but not evil from the start).

The reason why I don't want to group the evil/neutral civs together is that from a gameplay point of view we need some kind of a balance between good (elves/edain) and evil. It is ok to tip the balance in favor of the good, as the shadow civs will probably be stronger powerwise, but we should at least have some choice between evil/neutral civs.

Yes, that's good. With most Men civs the idea works fine. The only thing is with Isengard (and maybe Angmar) is that they should get units that are decidedly evil.

Also about Balrogs: I think we can keep them as extraordinary strong units (which they were), but they would be expensive to build (and wouldn't be build right out of the gate, but need a tech and a building, not sure which yet). They would not start as overly powerful, but get automatic experience just like heroes, albeit a tad slower. Anti-balrog promotions should also be available, so that a couple of units should have a decent chance to defeat one Balrog. If that's still to strong we could also limit the number of available Balrog by making them national units.
Most of the above goes for dragons as well.

I like it. Definitely go with national unit.

About dwarves: They should be able to work mountains and their workers should probably be able to make passages through the mountains, after which dwarven units can pass through without problem (as fast as on roads), other units can pass through at a max of one move per turn. Passages outside dwarben culture would have a chance of collapsing per random event.

Almost exactly what I was thinking. Collapsed passages should be faster to build new passages on than plain mountain.
There should also be random events where passages become inhabited by goblins.

 

[Sengir]

Yes, that's good. With most Men civs the idea works fine. The only thing is with Isengard (and maybe Angmar) is that they should get units that are decidedly evil.

Well that's the point. They will only get those units if they have turned to evil and will get other units if they stay neutral or turn to good.

 

[xmen510]

I agree with making teh Balrog a national Unit. Do the same with the Ringwraiths/Nazgul. Limit it to Nine total. Earlier version Ringwraith on Horse, later version Nazgul on flying mount.

 

[T_F]

Well that's the point. They will only get those units if they have turned to evil and will get other units if they stay neutral or turn to good.

Ah. I see what you mean.

Somehow 9 Nazgûl seems like a bit much, it depends on how strong they are. Maybe 8 (or however many balance limits us to) Nazgûl and have the Witch-King as a hero unit.

The Wraiths on Wings brings up another question. What kind of flying units are we going to deal with, and how will we deal with them? I think treating them like normal Civ4 treats airplanes would work fine for most if not all flying units.
I think we definitely need Eagles and Nazgûl+Fell Beasts, and winged dragons from the First Age (IIRC). IDK what else there would be.

 

[Sengir]

The Nazgûl should definately be split in 8 Nazgûl and the Witch-King, as the Witch-King was far more powerfull than the others. This way we can get one very strong unit and 8 reasonably strong units. (I'm not quite sure about going to prevent them from crossing running water without bridge, but it would be in tune with the book).

About the flying creatures... I haven't thought about it yet. Will do so. I agree that we should put them in but as of yet I'm not quite sure how. As normal planes might work... we'll have to see about it I guess.

 

[xmen510]

Let the Winged version be an upgrade. Perhaps require the Shadow Civ to build a special National Wonder that provides the Ability to build Nazgul or upgrade Ringwraith if already Built.

Example:

Removed - Better Example below

 

[Sengir]

That, and a tech as well probably.

 

[xmen510]

I agree with the Tech as well. I also added in the requirement for building The Nine Rings of Power national Wonder for them.

So:

The One-Ring -> The Nine Rings of Power (Mounted Ringwraith) -> Subjugation of Fell-Beasts Tech (Fell-Beasts/Flying Nazgul)

 

[Berenthor]

I like that idea. As far as the flying is concerned: don't make them airplane like. This will make it very limited to "air missions". In FFH2 they have dragons and griffon units which just move over impassable terrain (although we should think about oceans) and ignore movement costs. These thinks should really be balanced properly but this will work quite well I think. "Flying" or "Winged" could be a promotion which gives these properties to a unit maybe or just make it racial (dragons have it or something).

 

[T_F]

The Rings of Power seem like they need to be Projects or whatever that create items. We don't have to have all 20 rings (3 elf, 7 dwarf, 9 men, One), maybe just one or two of each kind (and the One Ring) that do whatever. Maybe for Men Rings their ability for Evil players is to upgrade a Man-race unit to a Nazgûl, consuming the ring in the process (destroying a Nazgûl doesn't leave a ring behind).
Maybe building the projects give you all (3, 7, 9) of the relevant rings. The only benefit for obtaining a not-your-race ring (except the One Ring) should be that then nobody else can use it.

For Fell Beasts, the Fell Beast project I suggested should give you Fell Beast units. You can use them as units individually, or combine them with Nazgûl (i.e. man + man ring) to create Wraiths on Wings.

Using the One Ring (whatever that may mean) should instantly convert Good civs to Neutral and Neutral civs to Evil. That shouldn't apply for any stealth effects it may give. (If all the One Ring does is stealth, then it's ridiculously underpowered.)

 

[xmen510]

You are thinking of teh Rings as equipment then, right?

I wasn't thinking along those lines when I was writing up the wonders. I suppose that could work. I was thinking that The Three Rings of the Elves would be one wonder and so on.

 

[T_F]

Yeah, pretty much. They're equipment that's created by Projects (so the Three Rings of the Elves would be a project that creates three Elven Ring items).

We probably need some sorta Ring of Power Forging tech enabling all of these.

 

[Berenthor]

Sounds like a good idea. But maybe a first thing we should try is to get the civilization list filled in completely. I know these are important issues but we can't resolve everything at once . Maybe we should focus on filling the civilization and unit list and the tech tree. That is a good basis to start modding also.

 

[xmen510]

I concur!

 

[Sengir]

Yeup, as soon as we have some finalized ideas about the techtree and civlist, we can start making the xml files and linking things to techs as well.

That said,
- I like the elves list the way it is now (Noldor split, 5 elven civs alltogether). Leave as is.
- I'm not sure on splitting the Edain. Limiting the good men to Numenor, Gondor, Arnor and Edain is still an option for me.
- Neutral men: I would add Isengard as a separate civ, using the Kuriotates from FFH as a base. Dunlending, Rohirrim and Northmen are ok (obviously if we put in Isengard, we should put in Saruman as a leader for Dunlendings). The reason I want Isengard as a OCC, is that I feel it gives us a really unique civ that fits well with the books.
- Evil men, Shadow and Dwarves: Ok.


Summary:
Add Isengard, I'm still in doubt about the Edain.

NOTE: this is only about the civs list. I think we should finalize that first, only then start working on the leaders, heroes, etc.

 

[xmen510]

How Civs stand at the moment without any other information + a few additions for discussion.

Civilizations:

Elves:

Noldor: House of Finwe
Noldor: House of Feanor
Teleri
Sindar
Vanyar

Good Men:

Numenor
Arnor
Gondor
Edain *

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim
Northmen
Dunlending
Isengard

Evil Men:

Haradrim
Easterling
Angmar

Shadow:

Mordor
Angband

Dwarves:

Longbeard
Firebeard & Ironfists


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* = In regards to the Edain, I agree that they should be 1 Civ. We can break them up for a scenario at some point.

* = In regards to the Dwarves, we can add these other Fathers for a scenario sometime perhaps (Broadbeams, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks & Stonefoots).

 

[Sengir]

I'll go by your discussion points one by one:

1. Numenor: I can go either way on this one, but I'm slightly in favor of including them, otherwise I feel we lack an era.

2. Edain: Agreed.

3. I prefer 2 dwarven clans: Longbeards, and Firebeards/Ironfists combined.

4. hmmm, not quite sure. On the one hand I would like to keep the shadow reserved for the heavy weight evil guys and would like to have only one shadow civ on the map. Having Angmar as a shadow civ can complicate this, but that can probably be worked around. On the other hand: you are absolutely right that they were never ruled by men. I do not remember at the moment what the troops of Angmar were composed of. Did they include trolls/orcs?

5. I am of the opinion that Saruman is not inherently evil and should not start out as such (it is mainly Saruman we are talking about). He started out as quite a nice guy, albeit a tad arrogant. He should however be more easily turned to evil then to good.