[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[8housesofelixir]

re:Saka, I've seen Iranian proposed as the identity of the Xiongnu, but it doesn't seem to be one of the more popular theories.

I mean, all the traditional Chinese sources explicitly said that Saizhong is not Xiongnu. I think these sources did figure out there is a difference between Mongolian (all those X- tribes) and Iranian peoples.

It seems to me that all the Eurasia steppe peoples can be roughly divided into Mongolians, Iranians, and Turkics (with the exception of Magyars? If we consider them as "steppe" nomads as well).

Interestingly, we have all of them in one Civ game currently (Mongolians, Scythians, Ottomans, Hungarians); maybe that is kind of a success already...

 

[Zaarin]

I mean, all the traditional Chinese sources explicitly said that Saizhong is not Xiongnu. I think these sources did figure out there is a difference between Mongolian (all those X- tribes) and Iranian peoples.

Yeah, Mongolian or Tungusic identities for the Xiongnu seem both the most popular and the most plausible, followed by Turkic. I highly doubt any Iranian people ever made it that far east; the eastern location of the Tocharians is already startling.

It seems to me that all the Eurasia steppe peoples can be roughly divided into Mongolians, Iranians, and Turkics (with the exception of Magyars? If we consider them as "steppe" nomads as well).

The major ones, yeah.

 

[Patine]

Yeah, Mongolian or Tungusic identities for the Xiongnu seem both the most popular and the most plausible, followed by Turkic. I highly doubt any Iranian people ever made it that far east; the eastern location of the Tocharians is already startling.


The major ones, yeah.

What about the idea of at least a Yeneisian component to the Xiongnu?

 

[Zaarin]

What about the idea of at least a Yeneisian component to the Xiongnu?

Might be a better question for @8housesofelixir ; I can't claim to be an expert on the Xiongnu. I know that Mongolian (or Para-Mongolic) and Tungusic are the most popular theories, followed by Turkic. I know Iranian has been proposed but is highly unlikely. And of course the proposed connection with the Huns. Beyond that I'm sure there are other theories, but I'm not familiar with them all. I'm not overly familiar with Yeniseian history.

 

[Inawordyes]

So, to summarize for NFP:
Rule 1 is followed by the Maya, Ethiopia, Byzantium, and Babylon.
Rule 2 is followed by Gran Colombia, Gaul, Vietnam, and whatever civilization we get in March.
Rule 3 is followed by the Maya, presumably by Vietnam, and by the civilization we get in March.
Rule 4 is followed by Gran Colombia and the Maya.
Rule 5 is followed by Ethiopia.
Rule 6 is followed by Gaul and Byzantium.
Rule 7 is followed by Babylon, Vietnam, and the civ we get in March.
Rule 8 is presumably followed by the civ we get in march (though Babylon was centered in Iraq, which was for a time under the British Empire).
SO... We are looking for a civilization we have not had, from the Asia and Oceanian area, and which may have been for a time under the sphere of influence of the British Empire, led by a woman.
Potential ideas: Hawaii under Lili'uokani. Unlikely because of the British Empire bit.
Haudenosaunee under Jigonhsasee. Unlikely because of Asia and Oceania. (And technically the "new" part, but they rebranded Carthage as Phoenicia, so...)
Saudeleur or Nan Madol? Also unlikely because of the British Empire bit. I'm inclined to believe that Babylon is the civ meant to represent the Anglosphere just because it opens up so many more possibilities.

Corazon Aquino of the Philippines, maybe? New civ, with a female leader, from Asia/Oceania. Only issue is that she's so recent, having only passed away in 2009

 

[AsH2]

..
This mis-match in population density was due to a wave of Plague preceding the Indo-European migration. See the latest edition of Scientific American (November 2020) for an article on Ancient Plagues describing the DNA of the plague which finally identified it as the 'depopulator' of the agrarian populations of Europe between about 3000 BCE and 2000 BCE. It turns out that the Black Death of the 14th century CE was the third or fourth Great Plague in Human history, and on the basis of the percentage of the afflicted population wiped out may not have even been the most lethal.

Indeed.

Spoiler End of the Neolithic :

End of the Neolithic
With some exceptions, population levels rose rapidly at the beginning of the Neolithic until they reached the carrying capacity.[13] This was followed by a population crash of "enormous magnitude" after 5000 BCE, with levels remaining low during the next 1,500 years.[13]

Transition to the Copper age
Main article: Chalcolithic Europe
Populations began to rise after 3500 BCE, with further dips and rises occurring between 3000 and 2500 BCE but varying in date between regions.[13] Around this time is the Neolithic decline, when populations collapsed across most of Europe, possibly caused by climatic conditions, plague, or mass migration. A study of twelve European regions found most experienced boom and bust patterns and suggested an "endogenous, not climatic cause".[14] Recent archaeological evidence suggests the possibility of plague causing this population collapse, as mass graves dating from around 2900 BCE were discovered containing fragments of Yersinia pestis genetic material consistent with pneumonic plague.[15]

 

[8housesofelixir]

What about the idea of at least a Yeneisian component to the Xiongnu?

Might be a better question for @8housesofelixir; I can't claim to be an expert on the Xiongnu. I know that Mongolian (or Para-Mongolic) and Tungusic are the most popular theories, followed by Turkic. I know Iranian has been proposed but is highly unlikely. And of course the proposed connection with the Huns. Beyond that I'm sure there are other theories, but I'm not familiar with them all. I'm not overly familiar with Yeniseian history.

I'm not linguist, but it is possible (although we are not 100% sure) that Yeniseians were part of the Xiongnu, since "Xiongnu" is an extremely heterogeneous group - or, to be precise, they were a political confederation that covers a great number of different peoples, groups, tribes, communities, etc.."Xiongnu" was just the name of their leading tribe.

Modu Chanyu, in his letter to Emperor Wen of Han, said that after he conquered Loulan (a Tocharian city-state), Wusun (a group of Iranian nomads), and Hujie (a group of proto-Mongolian nomads),"all these countries/peoples were turned into Xiongnu", and therefore "all the People Who Draw Bows* are now merged into one (all merged into 'Xiongnu')."
From these two lines you can probably tell that "Xiongnu" included a lot of people from different origins. (Remember how these "Xiongnu" people simply turned into "Xianbei" people when the Xianbei tribes gained the control over the steppes?)
*引弓之民, the early Chinese name for all the steppe people, since they were skilled in archery.

So, yeah, these people's ethnicities were fairly complex and it would be much easier for the devs to categorize them as one in a virtual boardgame (cf. "Scythians").

Edit: For all these steppe peoples who lived near the northern borders of East Asia, I suggest Di Cosmo's Ancient China and Its Enemies as a good read.

 

[679x]

SO... We are looking for a civilization we have not had, from the Asia and Oceanian area, and which may have been for a time under the sphere of influence of the British Empire,

Could you explain why we might expect a civ that has been in the British sphere of influence? I've missed a bit and I'm trying to go back through this thread to find an explanation on that but there are so many pages and I haven't found anything.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Could you explain why we might expect a civ that has been in the British sphere of influence? I've missed a bit and I'm trying to go back through this thread to find an explanation on that but there are so many pages and I haven't found anything.

Probably because all the DLC cycles/ Expansions had one: Australia, Scotland, and Canada.

I don’t think that means anything in relation to the NFP.

 

[pokiehl]

Probably because all the DLC cycles/ Expansions had one: Australia, Scotland, and Canada.

I don’t think that means anything in relation to the NFP.

Out of all the tenuous wild speculation in this thread, this one (Anglosphere) has gotta be the flimsiest.

 

[Onii-chan]

Out of all the tenuous wild speculation in this thread, this one (Anglosphere) has gotta be the flimsiest.

Yeah this is very far-fetched and it's hard to think of anything that seems like a remotely likely inclusion that'd fall under that category at this point anyway. Canada and Australia were already somewhat controversial inclusions for their time but at least they are big countries in modern times. I'd be surprised if any of the remaining NFP additions followed that pattern

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Yeah this is very far-fetched and it's hard to think of anything that seems like a remotely likely inclusion that'd fall under that category at this point anyway. Canada and Australia were already somewhat controversial inclusions for their time but at least they are big countries in modern times. I'd be surprised if any of the remaining NFP additions followed that pattern

Now that you mention both Canada and Australia, I would argue that it is more likely they were just post colonial nations as a choice, with Scotland as another choice to not make it too many before the second expansion.

In that case we already got the one in NFP with Gran Colombia.

 

[Xandinho]

Please, no more civilizations/leaders of the Anglosphere. If NFP is the last content cycle that we will get for Civ6, I hope very, very much, that the final civ in March will be Portugal. Even though it will hurt not to have a civilization from North Africa, another civ native to North America and no Italian representation.

 

[Kimiimaro]

I myself believe that Portugal will come last. Considering all the proof and headcanons for and against, I'd say I'm about 75% sure. And I'm also absolutely unsure about their leader, since Firaxis is rather surprising and expanding with their Civ VI choices. My hope goes for Manuel I.

 

[conorbebe]

Happy to see Babylon finally, sad that it means we most likely won’t get the Hittites.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I myself believe that Portugal will come last. Considering all the proof and headcanons for and against, I'd say I'm about 75% sure. And I'm also absolutely unsure about their leader, since Firaxis is rather surprising and expanding with their Civ VI choices. My hope goes for Manuel I.

If we go off the fact that every DLC cycle/ expansion has had 3 female leaders I have a feeling it might be Maria again.
But I would rather Joao II or Manuel I.

I’ve also kind of made peace most likely ending with Portugal no matter how much I wanted Italy or another Native American civ.

 

[Zaarin]

I myself believe that Portugal will come last. Considering all the proof and headcanons for and against, I'd say I'm about 75% sure. And I'm also absolutely unsure about their leader, since Firaxis is rather surprising and expanding with their Civ VI choices. My hope goes for Manuel I.

Logic makes me agree with you, but I'm still holding out hope for another Native American civ.

 

[VermelhoRed]

I just don't think Portugal will have much space, gameplay-wise...how many merchant naval civs can there be after all

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I just don't think Portugal will have much space, gameplay-wise...how many merchant naval civs can there be after all

It will probably be more exploration focused, and with a heavier lean on their infrastructure and amenities than on Trade Route bonuses.

 

[SirMediocrity]

It will probably be more exploration focused, and with a heavier lean on their infrastructure and amenities than on Trade Route bonuses.

Yeah, Spain already has a trade focus anyway. Interestingly enough, in civ 5, Portugal kinda had the trade focus while Spain had the exploration focus. It seems like those roles might be slightly reversed in civ 6.

(If they are more exploration focused and we do end up getting Maria I, we can probably expect their Unique Civilization Ability to be themed around exploration since Maria ruled after the main period of exploration.)