Coats cause inequality...

[warpus]

Honestly can't see how this can be legitimately labelled as "the stupidest solution".

That was clearly a figure of speech, and not a supporting statement for my position for you to argue against.

I get that bullying is a hard problem to solve. Schools aren't even trying, though. Instead they implement zero tolerance policies that often hurt the person who is bullied more than the bully him/herself.

I see a ban of expensive clothing exactly the same - an easy way out that does not address the underlying problem at all and merely puts a bandaid over a symptom, all while leading to a stupid rule where some kids will have to buy new winter jackets.

Do you really think banning fancy jackets will even do anything? You don't think the kids know who is poor and who isn't? The bullying will continue.

Another one of my points wasn't addressed either. Why stop at jackets? Will nice watches be banned next? Pricy smartphones? Will kids be banned from discussing how big their house is? How expensive their dad's car is?

This is just lazy stupidity

 

[Arakhor]

Given that children aren't supposed to show that they own phones in school, that shouldn't be an issue.

 

[warpus]

Given that children aren't supposed to show that they own phones in school, that shouldn't be an issue.

It's one of many examples. It blows my mind that people think that is a good solution to the problem. Kids will be kids, bullying will continue, as long as the officials turn a blind eye to the problem and make up stupid rules that don't do anything to address the fundamental issues

 

[Arakhor]

Why are you assuming that this is the school's only anti-bullying policy?

 

[warpus]

Why are you assuming that this is the school's only anti-bullying policy?

If they have an effective & comprehensive anti-bullying system in place and this is simply a minor part of their dress code, then this will be all presented as a rebuttal to my point at some point in the near future I'm sure

 

[Arakhor]

Well, that took less than a minute to hit a search engine and bring up the school's policies on their website.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Do you really think banning fancy jackets will even do anything? You don't think the kids know who is poor and who isn't? The bullying will continue.

Yes, because I attended school myself once and know how these things go. Some children showing up with some fancy and expensive "thing" (be it a coat, bag, bike, or whatever) can lead to them acting superior and bullying the other children who don't have those things. If those things aren't there to begin with then a lot of those instances don't happen. Yes, other bullying can and will still take place, including about being poor, but it's just not as likely to happen as when you have the thing right there to trigger it happening.

I mean, isn't this one of the rationales behind having school uniforms in the first place anyway? I'm sure things like this have been happening for years/decades anyway.

 

[warpus]

Some children showing up with some fancy and expensive "thing" (be it a coat, bag, bike, or whatever) can lead to them acting superior and bullying the other children who don't have those things. If those things aren't there to begin with then a lot of those instances don't happen.

In my mind that's as silly as this hypothetical scenario:

Problem: Kids get bullied at school due to having a name that's easily turned into an insult
School's Solution: Ban kids from being able to have that name, and make the parents rename their kids

You're not addressing the problem, you're putting a bandaid over the symptom and calling it a day.

Clearly we disagree about this, which is fine.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

The bit you quoted was me just describing how things actually happen, based on me witnessing that sort of thing happening over and over again over the course of a decade whilst in school. Are you saying that's "silly" as in you don't believe that even happens?

(Edit: I should point out that school uniforms weren't a thing the entire time I was at school, so this happened with coats, trainers, jeans, and so on.)

The "problem" is that children can and will be dicks to each other at pretty any much opportunity that's given to them. Removing opportunities is about the only way you can tackle that. I don't know what solution you think is better. "Teach kids not to bully" perhaps?

 

[Silurian]

Yes, because I attended school myself once and know how these things go. Some children showing up with some fancy and expensive "thing" (be it a coat, bag, bike, or whatever) can lead to them acting superior and bullying the other children who don't have those things. If those things aren't there to begin with then a lot of those instances don't happen. Yes, other bullying can and will still take place, including about being poor, but it's just not as likely to happen as when you have the thing right there to trigger it happening.

I mean, isn't this one of the rationales behind having school uniforms in the first place anyway? I'm sure things like this have been happening for years/decades anyway.

School uniforms are good for removing visible signs of wealth differences between children. I think they are good as long as they are available from a wide range of shops at a reasonable cost. Schools should also be able to change the school uniform as fashion and needs change.

 

[warpus]

Manfred, you don't think I was a student as well, living through bullying, and seeing it firsthand? Your experience is not unique here.

The "problem" is that children can and will be dicks to each other at pretty any much opportunity that's given to them.

That's the point! You ban expensive jackets, kids will bully others over shoes. You ban pricy shoes, kids will bully others over what gaming system they each own. You ban the discussion of gaming systems, kids will bully based on each other's haircuts. You ban some haircuts, they will bully others over what sort of bike they have... You ban that, kids will bully each other over.. almost anything you can think of.

This goes on and on and on.. Maybe just ban kids from coming to school altogether? Bullying will surely be 100% eliminated then.

It seems to me that implementing a mandatory uniform rule would be a better way to nip this in the bud. The problem I have with uniforms is that here in Canada at least, it's a huge cash grab, so it doesn't help poor parents at all.

 

[Arakhor]

I'm surprised that you managed to go through all of secondary school with no uniform whatsoever, Manfred.

A friend of mine apparently managed to go to a school with no uniform requirements, but even then he said that they mandated no designer clothing and no logos on their clothes.

 

[Silurian]

Manfred, you don't think I was a student as well, living through bullying, and seeing it firsthand? Your experience is not unique here.



That's the point! You ban expensive jackets, kids will bully others over shoes. You ban pricy shoes, kids will bully others over what gaming system they each own. You ban the discussion of gaming systems, kids will bully based on each other's haircuts. You ban some haircuts, they will bully others over what sort of bike they have... You ban that, kids will bully each other over.. almost anything you can think of.

This goes on and on and on.. Maybe just ban kids from coming to school altogether? Bullying will surely be 100% eliminated then.

It seems to me that implementing a mandatory uniform rule would be a better way to nip this in the bud. The problem I have with uniforms is that here in Canada at least, it's a huge cash grab, so it doesn't help poor parents at all.

You are arguing that because you can not solve all problems you should not solve some.

 

[Commodore]

I think it's an admirable policy though, particularly in a traditionally deprived urban area.

No, it's not. Telling someone they can't wear they clothes they want to wear simply because it might make some poor kids feel bad about themselves is simply outrageous. It's just as ridiculous as telling girls they can't wear certain clothing items at school because those items might be a "distraction" for the boys.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Maybe just ban kids from coming to school altogether? Bullying will surely be 100% eliminated then.

Then you'd have them bullying each other over which kind of computer they use for home schooling, and there are a ton of other things to bully people over. I was bullied in junior high over the fact that my parents were divorced and I was living with my grandparents. Back in the '70s, in a rural school in Alberta, this was an unheard-of thing. Forpetessake, even one of my teachers kept making snide cracks in front of the whole class when I attended a city school during my final two elementary years (when my dad and I were living with his then-girlfriend and her four kids from two different marriages). She felt it was perfectly okay to mock me in front of the other kids for this, not to mention that I'd transferred from that same county school I eventually went back to. She honestly had the view that kids who attended rural schools must be inherently stupid and lazy, and said so openly.

So I showed her... when the final report cards came out in June, my class rank was first (not sure if kids are ranked like that now, but back then it was a coveted thing to be among the top 5 in marks). I doubt it won much respect from her since she continued to make snide cracks the next year when I ended up in her home room, but it did from some of the other teachers and even a few of the classmates and neighbor kids.

Irrespective of clothes (we had no electronic gadgets back then to covet), one aspect of bullying back then was whether a student was placed in the advanced classes or one of the others. I was placed in the 'average' class in Grade 7, made it into that aforementioned top slot, and spent two miserable years in Grades 8 and 9 among kids who figured it was fine to mock me for not wearing blue jeans ("We'd like you if you wore jeans" is how one of them put it to me one day when we were waiting for the science class to start), fine to mock me for living with my grandparents, and any other damn reason they could think of.

The teachers remained oblivious to this, although finally the math teacher I had in Grade 8 noticed and let me go to the study carrels by the library to finish my assignments in peace, since I never got any peace in her classroom (she really had no idea how to make kids sit down and shut up). Of course that meant I got tagged as "teacher's pet" but at least I was able to get something done.

It seems to me that implementing a mandatory uniform rule would be a better way to nip this in the bud. The problem I have with uniforms is that here in Canada at least, it's a huge cash grab, so it doesn't help poor parents at all.

Yep. The people who make the decisions on uniforms don't take into account whether or not all the students' parents can afford them, or if there are any students who would feel humiliated in them (making it mandatory for girls to wear skirts is insane, both for reasons of health - I know from experience how awful it is to have to wear a dress in the middle of winter - and for self-esteem issues).

 

[Traitorfish]

"It is important that children are unhappy so I know that I live in a free society."

 

[Commodore]

"It is important that children are unhappy so I know that I live in a free society."

It's not about making kids unhappy, it's about people being forced to change how they live their lives for no other reason than to spare the feelings of others. If a kid is seriously feeling anxiety over what clothes their peers have (as the article in the OP claims), then that kid's parents have failed him/her. They failed their kid by not teaching them to be happy with what they have and not to worry about having all the fancy things in life.

 

[Arakhor]

Children not being allowed to bring £1200 coats to school is impinging on how they live their lives? Seriously?

In my opinion, anyone who does that is simply showing off and schools are perfectly at liberty to mandate that children show off on their own time, not at school.

 

[Berzerker]

if they ban your tunic, give them your cloak as well

 

[Traitorfish]

It's not about making kids unhappy, it's about people being forced to change how they live their lives for no other reason than to spare the feelings of others.

It's not about sad kids, sure, but it's evidently a necessary condition of a free society, and a lot of people here seem quite prepared to take it as a necessary proof of one, at least in this case.

If a kid is seriously feeling anxiety over what clothes their peers have (as the article in the OP claims), then that kid's parents have failed him/her. They failed their kid by not teaching them to be happy with what they have and not to worry about having all the fancy things in life.

You imagine that where Christ, Muhammad and the Buddha failed, some random parent in Merseyside can and should be expected to succeed?