Is it only me that reads this and thinks that does not sound too bad? For example "per capita economic output in the east is only at 71 percent of the western level", I would expect that if you drew the line in the right place you could get a bigger gap than that between northern and southern England, or Italy.
Communism ruined East Germany and it still hasn't been fixed - says Spiegel
- Thread starter Domen
- Start date
BirraImperial
Pura Vida!
I can't really provide an accurate insight of how reunification is going, since I don't live in Germany, but back in 2000 when I was there, there was a strong contrast between say, a small Western village and an Eastern one. It was like they were in totally different countries, mainly in terms of infraestructure, such as buildings, maintainance, etc. Only cities like Dresden and Leipzig looked modern and somewhat resembled their western counterparts. Went back in 2006 and things weren't all that different, probably a bit better.
And yes, communism is to blame. Name a single successful communist country. It doesn't exist.
And yes, communism is to blame. Name a single successful communist country. It doesn't exist.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Well, that's what they did though. They came, they rebuilt, but they rebuilt with crap. It ruined countries for decades. Poland is still recovering from all that. So are other countries.
Contrast that with America's help in rebuilding West Germany and other countries after the war. They did it right. They helped create prosperous countries. The Soviets did the exact opposite.
Let's give credit where credit is due.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
So does "ruined" just mean something else in Polish or what?
I think you're right. The article isn't entirely clear, but it seems like the issue is that in the German case, the economic disparities are tied up with the politics of reunification, so there's a sense of promises going unfulfilled?
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
If one falls from 3rd floor and gets most of his bones fractured or broken, then he needs proper treatment to get them grow together in a proper way again. If bones don't get proper treatment they will grow together in a random way and he won't be able to walk, etc. Communists not only failed to apply proper treatment to bones broken in WW2, but also damaged many until that time healthy bones, which then grew together in a wrong way. So I think it can be called "ruined".
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
So "yes", "no"...?
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
So does "ruined" just mean something else in Polish or what?
Say that your house got destroyed in a flood. I show up and build you a house out of excrement, and you and your family end up living in it for 50 years. You sleep in a bed made out of excrement. You eat at a table made out of excrement. Your job involves the sorting of excrement. Everything smells like crap and your life sucks as a result.
Contrast this with your neighbour, who's house was destroyed in the flood as well. But instead of me, CavLancer steps up to the plate and builds him a beautiful house. No crap at all is used in the construction process. There's even a bar, a pool, and other luxurious amenities that the destroyed house didn't even have. Your neighbour gets a job at a bank, also built by CavLancer, and is able to use the extra money he makes to travel the world and provide for his kids.
Would you say that your life was ruined by my actions? I could have helped, but I made your life miserable. I am to blame for your misery. I ruined the rest of your life.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
These analogies are all terrible.
Look, if you start with no sweets, and then somebody gives you a sweet, but not as many as the sweets the other children got, you can't say that they stole your sweets. That isn't what the word "stole" means. It's describes something which actually happened, not one time-line comparing unfavourably to an alternative, speculative time-line. But that's what's being claimed here, that our universe compares unfavourably to an imagined alternative universe where East German economic reconstruction was more successful, so the SED regime can therefore be said to have caused economic destruction equivalent to the hypothesised disparity. And that's nonsensical on the face of it.
You cannot cause ruination by insufficient success.
Look, if you start with no sweets, and then somebody gives you a sweet, but not as many as the sweets the other children got, you can't say that they stole your sweets. That isn't what the word "stole" means. It's describes something which actually happened, not one time-line comparing unfavourably to an alternative, speculative time-line. But that's what's being claimed here, that our universe compares unfavourably to an imagined alternative universe where East German economic reconstruction was more successful, so the SED regime can therefore be said to have caused economic destruction equivalent to the hypothesised disparity. And that's nonsensical on the face of it.
You cannot cause ruination by insufficient success.
Terxpahseyton
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Well, who told me so had more authority than your little anti-communism-rant, so forgive me if I am not convinced
edit @ discussion above
It may be worth noting that from the perspective of the political elite, the East German economy did not fail in so far a that living conditions also improved in East Germany since WWII, and continuously so. Well perhaps that kinda stopped in the 80s when things wn't rapidly more dire, but what I am saying is that regarding living conditions East Germany was all in all a success if the point of reference is the past (pre-WWII) and improvement. Just less so than West Germany.
One thing people should also realize - as much as we like to laugh at that living standard - East Germany had the highest living standard of any of the East-block-nations and still today people who lived there will tell you that they didn't really lack anything. Sure, they lacked things, but not in the sense that they really lacked something.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
What if they give you a sweet with poison that turns you into a Homo Sovieticus?
It compares unfavorably to West Germany (not to an imagined alternative universe).
Prosperity is always a relative measure.
Or are you telling me that an owner of 3 cows and a hut is just as prosperous in Europe as in Uganda?
So North Korea is a successful country - just less successful than South Korea ???
It compares unfavorably to West Germany (not to an imagined alternative universe).
Prosperity is always a relative measure.
Or are you telling me that an owner of 3 cows and a hut is just as prosperous in Europe as in Uganda?
So North Korea is a successful country - just less successful than South Korea ???
Well, who told me so had more authority than your little anti-communism-rant, so forgive me if I am not convinced
No, whoever told you that East Germans would keep on living normally under communism while being able to move freely to the West is an idiot. A major imbecile, an illiterate moron, and so on and so forth.
My "little anti-communism rant" has the authority of empirical evidence, of what actually happened whenever East Germans were able to leave. What you've been told only has the questionable authority of mental retardation.
Terxpahseyton
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What I said was that it was not just a fringe sentiment within the population to further work with the East-German state rather than to just abandon it. At least until Kohl spouted his delusional promises and faith in the new Eastern leadership dwindled after the parliament had a long discussion about what they - personally - could get out of reunification.
If such sentiment could have been picked up on in a way that a two-state-arrangement could have actually endured for a while is a different question. One I am simply not sure of.
And your aggressive presumptuousness doesn't help me in achieving any clarity.
But when the wall fell and borders were open, the vast majority of people went to the West, looked around, collected Western currency which was given by the state and then went back.
If such sentiment could have been picked up on in a way that a two-state-arrangement could have actually endured for a while is a different question. One I am simply not sure of.
And your aggressive presumptuousness doesn't help me in achieving any clarity.
But when the wall fell and borders were open, the vast majority of people went to the West, looked around, collected Western currency which was given by the state and then went back.
Before the Berlin Wall was built, 3.5 million East Germans circumvented the Eastern Block's emigration restrictions and moved to Western Germany. Again, this in a time when doing so was illegal. This is about 20% of the entire population, a massive number of people willing to break the law and take risk, not to mention to leave their homes and lives behind.
When the Wall was opened and restrictions lifted, the vast majority would not stay in the East if staying meant to remain living under a communist regime almost universally despised. When the Wall fell millions went to the West, got money and only returned because it was clear reunification was on the way and communism would not return to the East.
The only way to keep East Germany separate would be to keep East Germans trapped inside it. This is a historical fact vastly backed by what was observed, not an opinion.
I think looking at GDP figures is not very useful for assessing the success of the reunion. People moved. In particular, many young (productive) people immediately moved West, while pensioners were more likely to stay put. In fact, I believe the Baltic coast is nowadays quite popular as a retirement location for people from the West.
Add to that the worldwide trend of urbanization in the last decade, and consider that the two biggest West-German cities (Berlin and Hamburg) are very close to East-Germany, and are the closest large city for large parts of Eastern Germany.
Add to that the worldwide trend of urbanization in the last decade, and consider that the two biggest West-German cities (Berlin and Hamburg) are very close to East-Germany, and are the closest large city for large parts of Eastern Germany.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
You've got to understand the difference between not being given candy - but given crap instead. Do you know what crap is? It comes out of people's butts and it smells.
So no, they did not steal our sweets. They gave us crap, and nothing but crap. They could have given us at least something made out of clay! or bronze! or whatever. Something half decent maybe. But nope, it was crap - on a scale of 1 to 10, it was pretty close to a 1. It made the lives of the citizens of my country miserable for decades. Instead it could have been so-so or even good, but nope, it ended up being horrible.
Imagine your house got flooded again, and you have the choice of 2 contractors to fix it all up, A or B. You go with A, and they use crap to fix up your house. They do a horrible job and your life is miserable as a result. "Oh how I wish I could have went with contractor B", you moan to yourself, as you go to sleep in your bed made out of crap.
Now imagine that you weren't even given that choice, and contractor A, the worst contractor imaginable - not even trained in anything remotely resembling the fixing of flooded houses - is who you got. You had no choice in the matter, you had to accept it.
So yes, it ruined the country for many decades, and the Soviets were responsible.
Is not Berlin East Germany? I am sure it mostly was in the "old days".
Tahuti
Writing Deity
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No. West-Berlin was actually ruled directly by France, Britain and the US, who in practice afforded significant autonomy to the West-Berlin city government. Its integration into the FRG is as recent as fall the of the wall.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Hey Traitorfish, do not take all my comments about poo to be anything personal. It's an extreme example intended to draw home a point - not necessarily designed to be an exact parallel of the situation. If anything I've written sounds rash and/or crass otherwise, it's because I was at work and was rushing through things.
If your disagreement is mainly a linguistic one, then I present you with this alternative look at it: A beautiful potential was ruined.. for half a century. "Look", they said, "We've rebuilt your country".. and Poles looked around and sure enough, it was rebuilt. But it was .. well, you know, crap. Smelly smelly crap that we're still trying to wash the smell out of.
If your disagreement is mainly a linguistic one, then I present you with this alternative look at it: A beautiful potential was ruined.. for half a century. "Look", they said, "We've rebuilt your country".. and Poles looked around and sure enough, it was rebuilt. But it was .. well, you know, crap. Smelly smelly crap that we're still trying to wash the smell out of.
Borachio
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