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Conservative politics and assumption

I utterly disagree with this notion. Just because you are a far leftist internationalist and believe that there are no borders, it does not make it true. There are borders and states. There is no right of freedom to migrate in an other state without permission from that state. If you want to migrate to an other state, you must go through that state's legal framework. Otherwise, you are breaking its law and you are a common criminal.
 
Just because something isn't right, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
Just because something exists, doesn't mean it's right

I would counter that just because something exists, it does not mean that it is wrong either.

Disbanding borders and states and allowing mass immigration is certainly not right and thankfully does not exist for our world would be far, far worse.
 
He's afraid of the darkies taking away his god-given right to a job.
 
There's nothing inherently morally wrong with driving on either side of the road. Doesn't mean it would be a good idea to remove all laws enforcing one side or the other though. I mean... the darkies might crash into you for one thing.
 
He's afraid of the darkies taking away his god-given right to a job.

I just want to see the law enforced. If you think it is racist to want to uphold the law (I am opposed to illegal, not legal migration) then you have some intellectual problem. There plenty of reasons, both economic, cultural and demographic, as to why mass immigration is a bad idea. I am not one of those who oppose any migration at all and in fact I would support giving incentives for scientists and certain types of technical workers to migrate legally.
 
What are the reasons, then? If you support a racist law, that makes you a racist, even if you don't explicitly say that you're a racist.

Manfred Belheim said:
There's nothing inherently morally wrong with driving on either side of the road. Doesn't mean it would be a good idea to remove all laws enforcing one side or the other though. I mean... the darkies might crash into you for one thing.

Cars are hugely terrible and shouldn't exist in urban areas anyway :gripe:

Also you're making a false equivalence, since driving on a specific side of the road is to make sure you don't crash into other cars, while enforcing borders...isn't
 
Only you consider enforcing the law to prevent illegal immigration racist because you're a far leftist. As for the reasons, there are plenty and will post about them later cause I am typing from mobile phone.

But the idea of being racist because you support immigration through the legal framework and not illegally is ludicrous.
 
People aren't illegal, not even when they immigrate, and the demographics of illegal immigrants aren't exactly dominated by white people.

I don't know if you've ever tried moving from one country to another, but it's a massive pain, even under ideal circumstances, and having to jump through a bunch of legal hoops to do it (which tends to cost large amounts of money that most people don't have) makes it even harder. Being a refugee makes a legal process even harder than that, since you're literally running for your life, and don't exactly have time to process a billion different forms.
 
There is a reason for this. Opening the borders would flood European nations with tens of millions of immigrants from underdeveloped countries (there is a UN report on it). As one may easily understand, that would be both economically disastrous and lead to cultural clashes and rise of extremists (from both sides). So states have a legal framework in order to accept as many immigrants as it is economically and politically sound and can be (hopefully at least) of value to society. It also allows the state to have a basic info about who enters the country.
 
Cars are hugely terrible and shouldn't exist in urban areas anyway :gripe:

Okay...

Also you're making a false equivalence, since driving on a specific side of the road is to make sure you don't crash into other cars, while enforcing borders...isn't

I didn't even remotely imply there was a direct equivalence between the two things and that they were both about avoiding car accidents. Think outside the box a little.
 
Compare economies with high degree of economic freedom to the ones with low.

Like Somalia (high) and Norway (low)?



South Korea too was a dictatorship for most of its existence. Why it became a democracy and North Korea not? Why did South Korea succeed in the field of economic growth while North Korea failed despite the fact that initially the North had the better economy? Free markets.

But South Korea was a succession of dictatorships with periods of instability and riots and military coups, not a single regime with the leadership position being handed down along family lines the way North Korea is. None of South Korea's governments ever had the total political control over everything that North Korea's government achieved. South Korea's dictators had to deal with opposition politicians and protests from time to time. In North Korea there isn't an opposition because if there is, whichever Kim is in charge at the time has them all killed.

Nonsense. Under the "fascists" (they were not fascists) dictators Greece had a rate of economic growth comparable to Japan and Germany. You know when this ended? When in 1981 the socialists came to power. Debt skyrocketed from 20% to 90% of GDP in less than 8 years. Factories closed because of the socialist legislation passed and the labor unions became all powerful corrupt organizations.

Seriously? A right-wing dictatorship (fine, military dictatorship, not fascist dictatorship, not that there's a big difference between those) is better than a left-wing democracy because... economic growth and national debt? Does having a more open political system and more individual freedom not count for anything?

As for austerity measures, they do not force the poor to pay for the rich; they force those who work in the private sector to fund through overtaxation an overgrown public sector. The problem with Greece is the lack of cut of public spending and real reform. The leftist government of Tsipras overtaxes the people not because the North says so, but in order to preserve his political clients in the public sector.

Austerity means "less public spending" not "lack of less public spending." The austerity measures the EU keeps pushing for tend to be the cut spending/maybe also cut taxes type that disproportionately harm the poor.

Before Deng Xiaoping China was a hellhole in which millions of peoples died in utterly catastrophic centrally planned economic projects.

I wasn't arguing against that. Mao Zedong was a crappy leader; most authoritarians are crappy leaders.

The individual still has more freedom: compare average US citizen with average USSR one in the 1980's or US citizen with North Koreans nowadays.

Again, there's a lot more differences between those situations than just economics. The US has lots of political and individual freedom that the 1980's USSR and today's North Korea don't even come close to.

I've got a better one: Who has more freedom, the average Saudi Arabian citizen today or the average Swedish citizen today? Or how about we compare Afghanistan and Denmark? Or the UAE and Japan?

After all, the Arab gulf states generally have lots of economic freedom, as long as you're one of the rich people who owns all the Oil and not one of the migrant workers who has to process the oil or build stadiums for Qatar for low pay in long hours in horrid conditions.

Tax breaks foster economic growth as they allow companies to have more money to invest in the economy.

You can tell me that all you want, but the last thirty-five years have conclusively shown that no, they don't invest more money into the economy if they get tax breaks, they just stash it in the Cayman Islands so they can get even more money for themselves. They don't create jobs out of the goodness of their hearts, they create jobs because they need someone to do a particular job. If they already have all the workers they need, they're not going to hire more or pay the ones they already have more just because they can afford to. They'll keep that money for themselves, because they can.

Do not see why one should be prevented from enjoying life with his money. Rich people do not own anything to the poor ones (and the reverse is true too). All citizens must pay as much tax as absolutely necessary so that the state can function and no more. Taxation in order to enforce income distribution is common thievery.

But how does a rich person make that fortune in the first place without poor workers working for the company they own, making that company lots of money, the majority of which will go to the rich owner purely because they own it? Or maybe they're not the owner, just someone high up, who oversees and manages the company but doesn't do most of the actual labor, and yet they make 1000x as much as the laborers make. And they also need poor consumers to actually buy their products.

Nobody is an island. Everyone depends on everyone else, and everyone should get a fair share.

I myself support a flat tax of 15% with negative income tax replacing government welfare programs.

Again, a flat tax is inherently going to hurt the poor more than the rich. A poor person has to spend nearly all of their income on food and rent and other expenses that they need to survive, they can't afford to pay a high tax rate. For a rich person, these basic survival expenses are a tiny portion of their budget, and they can spend the rest on investments or luxuries. They can afford to pay a higher tax rate.

And like you said, everyone should pay as much tax as absolutely necessary so that the state can function, right? Well, the state needs a lot of money to function, and because of that, it's "absolutely necessary" that those who have more to contribute contribute more than those have less.
 
There is a reason for this. Opening the borders would flood European nations with tens of millions of immigrants from underdeveloped countries (there is a UN report on it). As one may easily understand, that would be both economically disastrous and lead to cultural clashes and rise of extremists (from both sides). So states have a legal framework in order to accept as many immigrants as it is economically and politically sound and can be (hopefully at least) of value to society. It also allows the state to have a basic info about who enters the country.

This is nonsense. Firstly because even if the entire population of Syria were to go to Europe, it would barely make a dent in the population, immigration is economically beneficial for Europe (since there is a lack of young people and it tends to be young people who are immigrating), and ''cultural clashes'' are overstated. The rise of extremists is only from European fascists, and while their attacks and hostility promote the growth of the Islamic State, said growth of the Islamic State is because of the hostile attitude immigrants face, not because of immigration itself. States often have legal frameworks to allow immigrants to stay, but that shouldn't even be a thing, because movement is a right, not a privilege.

Plus states should be destroyed so there's that.

I didn't even remotely imply there was a direct equivalence between the two things and that they were both about avoiding car accidents. Think outside the box a little.

You're the one who compared them
 
The only thing that illegal immigrants are guilty of is moving from one place to another
I mean, that's not just phrase-mongering, it's literally true. Western liberal democracies do not, as a rule, criminalise unlawful residence in a country, they only deny unlawful residents the sorts of legal protections that prevent deportation. The only illegality involved in "illegal immigration" is in the act of crossing the border, and that part may have been done entirely legally, and the lawful residence simply lapsed with the expiration of a visa, denial of asylum, or what have you.

I mean, what kind of tinpot Stalinoid joke of a country actually makes it a crime to simply exist without proper documentation? That's the kind of place you want to live, find some deserted atoll and make your own horrible nightmare-state, don't inflict on the rest of us.
 
I've mostly ignored this thread, but a short and simple definition of conservatism just occurred to me. It is a commitment to policies that have been tried before and failed.

Economically, Reagan instituted a "rich get richer while the poor get poorer" system under the guise of strengthening the economy. Conservatives look at the resulting economic gap that is growing exponentially and continue to suggest tax cuts for the wealthy as the answer.

On foreign policy they have seen any number of democratizations by invasion utterly fail, but still consider anything other than armed invasion to be "coddling an enemy state." They are completely incapable of negotiation.

On humanitarianism, they shout for refugee camps in neighboring states when Syrians flee the black hole of civil war that their democratization efforts created. Apparently they look to the great results produced by the refugee camp plan for dealing with the Palestinians when their pet dog Israel drove them from their homes.

On the environment, they want to roll all regulations back to zero. Obviously previous generations of industrialists did such a bang up job of creating and releasing toxic wastes that the conservative hungers for more.

Then, of course, there's civil rights. Don't need anything to guarantee those. People left to their own devices can always be counted on to be inherently fair minded, right?

The conservative movement is morally bankrupt, and has not a single success, in ANY area, that they can point to.
 
Because you can look at a liberal state in the United States, with similar social safety nets, socio-economic systems, and better approaches to mental health and policing, but you still have guns all over the place, and the results are still worse than Australia.

I notice that murder and poverty levels are lower in progressive states than they are in by-your-bootstraps/tough-on-crime states and how strict the state's gun control is doesn't really correlate to any of it.

If you isolate and only examine the difference between a liberal society with guns and a liberal society without guns, the one without guns is still safer.

I assume you mean societies with "less guns" versus ones with "more guns." It's not an off and on switch.

So something like this?
Norway: civilian-owned guns per capita 31.3 / murder rate 0.6
Belgium: civilian-owned guns per capita 17.2 / murder rate 1.8

Obviously this is cherry picking data. You can find examples to "prove" your claim too. You haven't answered my question: How did you conclude that gun control is the answer as opposed to the tons of other factors that can effect crime and police brutality?
 
You're the one who compared them

Yes because I assumed I was talking to human beings, not Commander Data or Johnny 5. I quite literally cannot believe you really think that I was saying border/immigration controls are in place to prevent car accidents...
 
Mexico openly shoots illegal immigrants crossing their southern border. Canada doesn't allow illegal immigrants from America's border.

How come it's only racist when America stops illegal immigrants from its southern border, but when other countries do the very same thing it's not racist?
 
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