Coronavirus. The n(in)th sequel.

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Yeah I’m speculating, but it wouldn’t surprise me to learn “vaccine-hesitancy” (stupidity) is close to non-existent in China. This would lead to China probably being in much better shape than us once they do re-open.
It is there; one of my friends has been avoiding getting one for both religious reasons and because they do not trust the data from the Chinese government. But the Government is not hesitant to require vaccination if it wants to do so. They could require vaccination to enter or leave the country; to travel from province to province by train or plane. No vacci no tickee!
 
Yeah I’m speculating, but it wouldn’t surprise me to learn “vaccine-hesitancy” (stupidity) is close to non-existent in China. This would lead to China probably being in much better shape than us once they do re-open.

It's hard to know if there is, but ultimately it doesn't matter, because the Chinese Government in this respect, has no interest in kicking own goals on the COVID front by killing their population. They are kicking plenty of their own goals on other issues, buts it's all like 20th Century Rising Great Power stuff, ala Imperial Germany and Japan. Overly aggressive foreign policy, needless internal repression, etc.


Anyway, a factor that is being greatly under-discussed in broad society, because the media is always biased to what the right-wing or the loudest voices say. The vaccinated, are getting sick of the anti vaxxers. The media focus is all on the anti-vaxxers, letting them explain themselves, railing against government 'tyranny', platforming mandates as oppressive, or even saying that restrictions and mandates required by politicians are Brave, as if it is being done against a majority, instead of a loud minority.

But a vaccine mandate has always been majority approval, and it's only growing more so.

E-42oX0WYAYuuU_


People are sick of the pandemic and are going to punish the Anti-vaxxers who want it to continue forever.
 
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I am quite fed up with them and their stupidity.
 
The best part is the pandemic isn't going away even if they do get the mandates. So if we do get the desired corporate punishments in concert with the government's support, that's just win win for our amateur political fash...ionistas that seem very fash... ionable to talk about in the third person! At least we seem to have decided in the other thread that they're simply good people in the service of evil. ;)
 
The best part is the pandemic isn't going away even if they do get the mandates. So if we do get the desired corporate punishments in concert with the government's support, that's just win win for our amateur political fash...ionistas that seem very fash... ionable to talk about in the third person! At least we seem to have decided in the other thread that they're simply good people in the service of evil. ;)
It is not a question of individuals being good or bad people. It mostly about people being led astray by irresponsible leaders who have injected politics into health matters.
 
When were politics "not injected into health matters?"

Like, when was that?
 
Never at the scale we have seen in the past 18 months nor by the senior political leaders of a party. Please point out previous instances of a president, senior level congressional people, or leading media personalities leading a charge against a vaccination program?

Vaccination is not Medicare or Medicaid or SNAP or veteran health.
 
If you insist.
 
So you don't have any actual examples?
 
No, but I'm not asserting the point. And I care enough to simply not believe you're accurate, and then I run out of care for the conversation.
 
I asked a question, which wasn't hostile.

I received a question in response, which is sort of poor form, but fine for shooting the **** with friends. But I don't care enough to google rabbit hole this tonight to somehow defend a question answered with a question. Life's too short and I don't care enough right now to imagine up a point to defend. So... I don't believe the follow up assertion says anything of merit, without further convincing. Seems fun enough to me, sure. Pretty simple train of thought, too. But becoming less so the more belabored it becomes.
 
In the long term, vaccines are the only tool which we know about right now.
I mean in terms of government policy rather than direct medical intervention.

I am quite fed up with them and their stupidity.
Hear, hear!

our amateur political fash...ionistas
The true enemy is not in Washington, not a vaccine, and not fascist. We do not yet risk the total loss of Western civilization, but the anti-vaccine crowd certainly is pushing us—however unwittingly—in that direction.
 
:run::run::run::run::run:
 
It's a good movie. Americans are worried about a vaccine gap!
 
The best part is the pandemic isn't going away even if they do get the mandates. So if we do get the desired corporate punishments in concert with the government's support, that's just win win for our amateur political fash...ionistas that seem very fash... ionable to talk about in the third person! At least we seem to have decided in the other thread that they're simply good people in the service of evil. ;)

I asked a question, which wasn't hostile.

I received a question in response, which is sort of poor form, but fine for shooting the **** with friends. But I don't care enough to google rabbit hole this tonight to somehow defend a question answered with a question. Life's too short and I don't care enough right now to imagine up a point to defend. So... I don't believe the follow up assertion says anything of merit, without further convincing. Seems fun enough to me, sure. Pretty simple train of thought, too. But becoming less so the more belabored it becomes.

I'm not being hostile. I only called people fascist for wanting a vaccine mandate. - Farm Boy.

You do see how unproductive you are? You constantly come into discussions in a provocative and vague manner, and then upon the slightest pressing, or even simply asking what you mean, you get pissy and defensive. I've never seen you actually carry forward an argument on any topic, aside from how personally offended you are.


Also, I might as well quote from the Federalist article which pretty clearly makes the right-wing case for vaccines and public health, before they joined the GOP wing nut death cult.

The current vaccine debate, unlike those prior ones, is actually motivated by a real problem (the return of diseases presumed previously eradicated) as opposed to conspiratorial musings. There are some basic questions here which are legitimate regarding the protection of the rights of parents, not government, to direct the upbringing of their children. Calls to jail ‘anti-vax’ parents, for instance, strike me as extreme and disturbing. But vaccination is not about protecting the vaccinated so much as it is about protecting others from disease-carriers. Vaccines are properly understood not on the basis of narrow self-interest but as a defense of the human species.

Fundamentally, the protection against life-threatening plague is one of the original reasons government exists. We’ve had mandatory vaccines for schoolchildren in America since before the Emancipation Proclamation. The Supreme Court has upheld that practice as constitutional for over a century, and only the political fringes believe there ought to be a debate about such matters. This is one of the few areas where government necessarily exercises power. Richard Epstein notes the impossibility of turning to the courts for recompense after infection:

The basic soundness of the constitutional recognition of a police power to deal with communicable diseases is beyond dispute. Even in a free state, quarantines are the only reliable remedy to protect the health of the public at large from the spread of disease. It is sheer fantasy to think that individuals made ill could bring private lawsuits for damages against the parties that infected them, or that persons exposed to imminent risk could obtain injunctive relief against the scores of persons who threaten to transmit disease. The transmission of disease involves hidden and complex interconnections between persons that could not be detected in litigation, even assuming that it could be brought in time, which it cannot.

The problem has been the growth of those opting out of vaccination, not due to deeply held religious beliefs or legitimate medical problems or impoverished and irresponsible parents, but because of other concerns. It’s telling that refusing to get your kids vaccinated is the trendy thing among the California elite, even as they decline to embrace other aspects of the Amish lifestyle. Or the Jenny McCarthy lifestyle, for that matter.

The Right To Choose, But Not Without Consequences
I am sympathetic to the idea that some parents believe there are already too many vaccines on the schedule, who have concerns and prefer to delay or space the vaccines out. According to this report, 1 out of every 10 parents already does this. But conceding that parents have the right to delay these shots is not the same as saying they should have the right to prevent such vaccination altogether without consequences.

It’s the failure to deal with those consequences that frustrates me about this debate. If you choose to not vaccinate your children, that is your choice. In the absence of an immediate threat, such as a life-threatening plague or outbreak, the state doesn’t have a compelling reason to administer that vaccination by force or to infringe on your rights. But that doesn’t mean there are no tradeoffs for such a decision. If you choose not to vaccinate, private and public institutions should be able to discriminate on that basis. Disneyland should be able to require proof of vaccination as a condition of entry, and so should public schools. You shouldn’t be compelled to vaccinate your child, but neither should the rest of us be compelled to pretend like you did.

The balance of liberty and autonomy here is important. If you’ll permit me to quote at length, Ronald Bailey wrote intelligently on this in Reason’s 2014 forum on mandatory vaccination, which was excellent (emphasis mine):

Oliver Wendell Holmes articulated a good libertarian principle when he said, "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins." Holmes' observation is particularly salient in the case of whooping cough shots. Infants cannot be vaccinated against whooping cough (pertussis), so their protection against this dangerous disease depends upon the fact that most of the rest of us are immunized. Unfortunately, as immunization refusals have increased in recent years, so have whooping cough infections. The annual number of pertussis cases fell from 200,000 pre-vaccine to a low of 1,010 in 1976. Last year, the number of reported cases rose to 48,277, the highest since 1955. Eighteen infants died of the disease in 2012, up from just four in 1976. The trend is affecting other diseases as well. In 2005, an intentionally unvaccinated 17-year-old Indiana girl brought measles back with her from a visit to Romania, and ended up infecting 34 people. Most of them were also intentionally unvaccinated, but a medical technician who had been vaccinated caught the disease as well, and was hospitalized. Another intentionally unvaccinated 7-year-old boy in San Diego sparked an outbreak of measles in 2008. The kid, who caught the disease in Switzerland, ended up spreading his illness to 11 other children, all of whom were also unvaccinated, putting one infant in the hospital. Forty-eight other children younger than vaccination age had to be quarantined. Some people object to applying Holmes' aphorism by arguing that aggression can only occur when someone intends to hit someone else; microbes just happen. However, being intentionally unvaccinated against highly contagious airborne diseases is, to extend the metaphor, like walking down a street randomly swinging your fists without warning. You may not hit an innocent bystander, but you've substantially increased the chances. Those harmed by the irresponsibility of the unvaccinated are not being accorded the inherent equal dignity and rights every individual possesses. The autonomy of the unvaccinated is trumping the autonomy of those they put at risk.

Ah, the distant time of ... 2015. When even a complete right-wing hack, can be sensible about public health, and justify it. Though it seems like half the reason is that they wanted to own the 'anti-vax libs of California'


Herd Immunity is absolutely reachable with political will. This position is absolutely bizarre, there is already a stark difference between US States, with some getting absolutely ravaged by COVID, and others not. The variable being vaccination rates. And no US State is at, even the Pre Delta estimates for Herd Immunity, which was in the 70 to 80 something % of the population range. The highest is Vermont with ... 68% of its total population fully vaccinated. And they are at 0.09 daily deaths per 100,000. Meanwhile, some Southern low vax states are having greater than 1 daily death per 100,000. That's a very stark difference, and there is no reason to stop at 68% of the population.
 
Oh noes. I are not pure enough to be productive. Woe, woe.

I'm complimented. Thanks!
 
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