Coronavirus 14: Boosted Waves or Merely a Ripple?

[MrCynical]

To be clear: I'm accusing you of deliberate misdirection. You use a lot of terms to pretend you're being technical but you are attempting to distract from what really goes on. And I do not thing you ever argued here about the covid and pharma iindustry issues in good faith. I know when I see certain types of attempted manipulation. It's not accidental.

Innonimatu, if you're going to talk about the technical processes of how the mRNA vaccines work, that's going to involve using technical terms and understanding what they mean. I'm using these terms because I use them every day professionally. I've already used a lot of simplifications and analogies throughout to help it be more readable to those outside the field, but yeah, it's still makes for a rather technical explanation. Bluntly, if you cannot cope with the terminology of a first year undergrad lecture, you do not have enough understanding to decide the accuracy of an explanation or that it's "misdirection".

It is not a surprise to me that you've accused me of bad faith, since you do this to anyone whose explanations you don't like, even those with expertise in the area. Where you cannot resolve whatever misinformation you've been reading in anti-vaxxer echo chambers this week with informed explanations, your go-to response is to simply call it "lies". That is without even getting started on your habit of assuming lies and bad faith when any prediction is less than 100% accurate in every detail. It's tiresome, unhelpful, and is the reason no one on this forum takes anything you post seriously. Something that has become so obvious to you that you've tried to make your identity a "Cassandra" - failing to grasp that you'd need to be correct as well as not believed for that to apply.

Some basic questions, are you willing to answer succinctly and in plain language?

What exactly happens to the produced protein? To be specific, where exactly does it move into after being produced?
Do you agree or do you deny that it is supposed to moves into the cell membrane and gets exposed to the outside of the sell, but anchored to the cell that produced it?
What is supposed to happen to that cell when the immune system reacts to the protein?

You seem to have skipped over my exchange with El Mac above where I covered this. There is indeed an error in one paragraph of my earlier post where, four paragraphs into an accurate explanation that cells don't just make protein from a single mRNA forever, I forgot about the membrane anchor. But I corrected that as soon as I was reminded of it, and I suspect before you even read it. That's how science works by the way, Inno - recognizing a mistake and fixing it.

To recap what I already posted above:

The protein is exported to the outside of the cell, with the anchor on the S2 end remaining attached to the cell membrane. This allows immune system targeting, which yes will end up with destruction of the cell. In practice the S1 subunit seems to detach in at least a small percentage of the displayed protein, although how much of its structure and functionality this S1 fragment retains is questionable.

Edited: I may be getting to harsh here. People are human, and subject to unconscious bias, professional bias, social influence, whatever.
But I am very, very frustrated at the attempts to not see the problems of this whole covid disaster, of what was done wrong.

Closest I'm likely to get to an apology, so I'll take it.

 

[El_Machinae]

But I do have to eventually drill down into why I feel betrayed. Now, I was in regular contact with anti-vaxxers, and so was dealing with the latest conspiracy theory all the time. So, remember that I was also answering questions about nano lipids being controlled by G5 radio waves in our brain.

But I do remember thinking that the spike protein would remain localized to the injection site. In retrospect, I should have thought of exosomes on my own, but I didn't. I was relying on popularized material to answer those questions. Now it could be I misinterpreted, but I think that we were lead to believe the spike protein would remain isolated.

The other one was when we were told the mRNA would degrade within days. As soon as you understand the biology, you only care if the nucleotides are still capable of acting as a messenger. If someone says they're going to demolish a house by the end of the week, and you find scraps of concrete with rebar still in them on the ground, you don't complain that the demolishing didn't actually happen. After that, you just distinguish when the wreckage is cleared.

But if there is still detectable transcription occurring weeks later, that's a different story about feeling deceived by the popularized explanation. Not only is it casually easy to detect, but also puts to the lie that the various stages of this technology had been under development "for years", and that there were "years" of testing ahead of time.

Not that the exosomes matter or that doubling the expected retention time of an effect matters, except that if the claims are false, it means that the people making the claims were not actually looking at the data. And that itself is quite troubling.

 

[MrCynical]

But if there is still detectable transcription occurring weeks later, that's a different story about feeling deceived by the popularized explanation. Not only is it casually easy to detect, but also puts to the lie that the various stages of this technology had been under development "for years", and that there were "years" of testing ahead of time.

Yeah, the lack of a simple mRNA transcription level vs time profile is annoying. Especially given the tech to measure mRNA half lives gene by gene has been around for at least 15 years. Really ought to be straightforward to get a breakdown of vaccine mRNA durability by cell type. If I were running this, I'd also be looking to compare the contributions of the non-standard base, lipid encapsulation, cap modifications and so on by running the various possible modifications to standard mRNAs in parallel. We've been working on the premise that these combine to go from a half life of about 7 hours to a few days, but it would be useful to have more of an idea which elements contribute what to overall stability. And so allow more tuning of mRNA persistence to what's required for a satisfactory immune response.

But I do remember thinking that the spike protein would remain localized to the injection site. In retrospect, I should have thought of exosomes on my own, but I didn't. I was relying on popularized material to answer those questions. Now it could be I misinterpreted, but I think that we were lead to believe the spike protein would remain isolated.

In fairness from what I remember of discussion around the time of the main vaccine rollout, the idea was that the vaccine would mostly be remaining in the muscle around the injection site. Not so much claims of absolute isolation of the mRNA (and hence expressed spike protein). But I've no doubt at least some media reports were losing the "mostly". Caveats like that do have a bad habit of going missing,

 

[El_Machinae]

Maybe I'm just being lazy with my google-fu, but I thought it would be pretty easy to find official explanations from the time period and see whether they included exosomes in their explanations for the more educated audience.

 

[Takhisis]

Closest I'm likely to get to an apology, so I'll take it.

Don't. He's telling you that you're wrong anyway and he won't back down on anything and he's also disregarding his utter lack of capability or experience (or even personal stake) that could somehow justify his intervention in these matters to shift the blame onto you. He did the same to me when he had to deal with my proving that Argentina's government was sacrificing tens of thousands of lives for ideological posturing and personal enrichment and I provided quotes of the legal dispositions broken and video footage of government officials actually breaking said laws.
He's doing the same with his recurrent defence of anything-but-vaccines that stretches to hydroxichloroquine, ivermectin, Cuban miracle serum and whatever comes next.

 

[The_J]

In fairness from what I remember of discussion around the time of the main vaccine rollout, the idea was that the vaccine would mostly be remaining in the muscle around the injection site. Not so much claims of absolute isolation of the mRNA (and hence expressed spike protein). But I've no doubt at least some media reports were losing the "mostly". Caveats like that do have a bad habit of going missing,

I've not read anything about intramuscular injections, but would you not expect for anything that doesn't go straight into the bloodstream that most would go into surrounding, and that a fraction might get transported further? Or am I seeing this wrong?
(how many other vaccines are intra-muscular...I actually don't know. Guess the influenza one is, since I remember just getting jabbed into an arm; could be that they all are...no?)

 

[innonimatu]

I've not read anything about intramuscular injections, but would you not expect for anything that doesn't go straight into the bloodstream that most would go into surrounding, and that a fraction might get transported further? Or am I seeing this wrong?
(how many other vaccines are intra-muscular...I actually don't know. Guess the influenza one is, since I remember just getting jabbed into an arm; could be that they all are...no?)

It makes some difference but the injected fluid necessarily gets distributed systemically. There is no such thing as a truly localized injection, the capillary ends of the system needs to circulate blood and plasma to all living cells.
I do believe that the worse side effects from vaccines depended on bad application. As in not testing (aspirating) whether the injection hit the bloodstream directly, before injecting. This cautin has been dropped in many countries, and some brought it back midway through the covid vaccination thing.

 

[The_J]

I did not think I'd say this in this thread, but I can agree with your post .

 

[Birdjaguar]

Will the US insistence on vaccination prior to entry be rescinded on May 11? That policy is not part of the emergency measures ending then. Has anyone heard or read about it?

 

[The_J]

I think we all should. If we can insist on other vaccines for travelling (as it is already done for years), then this one should right now stay as well.

 

[Zelig]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1628089246325014552

In terms of death, once you were vaccinated, covid was irrelevant.

 

[Gorbles]

Getting it in March 2020 was fun, let me tell you.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Coolio had a fun 30 minute performance at Riotfest on the 18th, and now he's dead 10 days later!

Coolio Dead at 59

Coolio died Wednesday in Los Angeles ... TMZ has learned.

www.tmz.com

Yup, fentanyl.

https://www.npr.org/2023/04/07/1168605721/coolio-death-fentanyl-overdose-coroners-report

 

[Takhisis]

Well, the cat's out of the bag now. Argentina's unhealth ministry is being accused of having tampered with official statistics and hidden a large number of deaths.

We already knew, as I documented back in the day, but still it's not the same when a former health minister comes out and says it.

 

[MrCynical]

Far from the only country to do so. Pretty much the only way to get a decent picture of the true effects of Covid is proving to be looking at the excess deaths compared to a pre-Covid baseline. It's a lot harder to hide that deaths occurred than it is to play around with definitions to avoid attributing it to Covid. This paper's quite a good example of looking at the excess deaths approach, although it only covers up until the end of 2021.

This doesn't cover anything after the end of 2021, so for instance does not include excess deaths after China re-opened for example. They also include a nice comparison of "official" Covid deaths vs these excess deaths which were officially attributed to other causes.

Serves as a nice "how honest was your country about Covid" proxy. Or alternatively, "how much attention did your country pay to whether a death was caused by Covid or not". Some discrepancies can be perhaps excused as that, rather than active attempts at concealment. Areas with very low numbers of people and cases can also end up looking rather anomalous by this kind of approach (e.g. Greenland). (Argentina not actually looking too bad here for what it's worth, but I'm looking at the more general picture).

And yes, I can already hear the objections from certain parties that excess deaths could be due to the lockdowns rather than Covid, although it ought to be possible to distinguish between the two with the right kind of analysis.

 

[Samson]

Are there any countries with the "No Data" grey? Or have they mixed up that and the "2 <= 5" group that the Norks seem to be in?

 

[uppi]

Are there any countries with the "No Data" grey? Or have they mixed up that and the "2 <= 5" group that the Norks seem to be in?

West Sahara, for example

 

[MrCynical]

Are there any countries with the "No Data" grey? Or have they mixed up that and the "2 <= 5" group that the Norks seem to be in?

I see a few overseas territories with no data. French Guiana and Svalbard for instance. Although there's either an optical illusion going on or Svalbard is in a lighter shade of grey than it's supposed to be.

 

[Takhisis]

To add to the confusion over Argentina's ersatz!government, Argentina's depressident has complained about why people don't thank him, if over 10 million people got infected and ‘so few’ died. The man really is trying to ensure that he won't be able to walk the streets without getting killed by a random passerby, dammit.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Florida surgeon general altered Covid-19 vaccine analysis to suggest higher risk for younger men, Politico reports​

By Jamie Gumbrecht, CNN
Updated 11:28 AM EDT, Tue April 25, 2023

https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/25/health/florida-covid-vaccine-analysis-ladapo/index.html