Coronavirus: The Great Unmasking

[FriendlyFire]

from yahoo and the NYT about what happened to a researcher for leaving open the possibility the bug was accidentally released from the lab.

But Covid is just a hoax and is just the common cold /s

 

[FriendlyFire]

We may never know for sure. Maybe if other nations also banned together to pressured China
But even then, it might not be definitive

New U.S. Intelligence Report Doesn’t Provide Definitive Conclusion on Covid-19 Origins
Review followed previous efforts to corral evidence that ended in bureaucratic infighting and failure

The new assessment, which was ordered by President Biden 90 days ago, highlights the administration’s difficult challenge to wrest more information from Beijing that would shed light on how the global pandemic began.
It underscores the importance of inducing China to share lab records, genomic samples, and other data that could provide further illumination on the origins of the virus, which has killed more than four million people world-wide, current and former officials said.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/biden-...persist-in-how-to-deal-with-china-11629825758

 

[Kaitzilla]

We may never know for sure. Maybe if other nations also banned together to pressured China
But even then, it might not be definitive

The world is $10 trillion and 4 million deaths into this disaster so far.

What would the consequences be if the Science we worship caused this by dragging it out of a remote cave, juicing it up in a lab, then accidentally letting it escape?

Can we even entertain the thought for more than 10 seconds?
Here is Jon Stewart, a very sharp thinker grappling with it @2:45.

 

[Samson]

It's because he didn't want everyone panicking and buying up all of the PPE which was in limited supply at the time, and leaving it for the doctors and nurses who needed it on the front line. When PPE was more commonly available, he reversed his position. But does the brain dead section of the American public understand that? No. It's sad that some people are so stupid that they have to concentrate to breathe.

This was the american government, which can print as much money as it likes and could make masks if it wanted to, misleading the people about one of the most effective covid reduction measures so they can get the PPE cheaper and not have to divert resources to manufacture.

• This had people giving me dirty looks when I wore a mask to go to the doctors in the UK when I had respiratory symptoms in February 2020.
• I suspect it has significantly reduced the public trust in science/government advice worldwide.
• It has helped make mask wearing a political issue rather than a social duty.

Sure, people make mistakes and that does not make them "bad" or not the right person for the job. However we should recognise mistakes and learn from them, rather than defending them as actually correct.

 

[Kyriakos]

@Takhisis should start the new thread already

 

[Gorbles]

This was the american government, which can print as much money as it likes and could make masks if it wanted to, misleading the people about one of the most effective covid reduction measures so they can get the PPE cheaper and not have to divert resources to manufacture.

• This had people giving me dirty looks when I wore a mask to go to the doctors in the UK when I had respiratory symptoms in February 2020.
• I suspect it has significantly reduced the public trust in science/government advice worldwide.
• It has helped make mask wearing a political issue rather than a social duty.

Sure, people make mistakes and that does not make them "bad" or not the right person for the job. However we should recognise mistakes and learn from them, rather than defending them as actually correct.

Sure, but by the same logic, Fauci is not at fault for the government's general choices on spending (on PPE, etc). He was trying to make the best of a situation where things like spending are completely out of his control.

 

[Samson]

Sure, but by the same logic, Fauci is not at fault for the government's general choices on spending (on PPE, etc). He was trying to make the best of a situation where things like spending are completely out of his control.

Indeed. Fauci was the one light in a very dark administration. With hindsight I really think that one decision was a mistake, and we should learn from it so we do not repeat it.

 

[Gorbles]

Indeed. Fauci was the one light in a very dark administration. With hindsight I really think that one decision was a mistake, and we should learn from it so we do not repeat it.

Don't get me wrong, I get where you're coming from, but I disagree. If I were in his position, and there was no political will to make more PPE, or handle any of the monetary problems, I would try and dissuade people from stockpiling as well. Stockpiling affected me here in the UK, personally. My wife and I literally couldn't order masks because people had backed up every single place that offered them (including the craft ones on places like Etsy). She was pregnant at the time - it was an incredibly worrying (and honestly, scary) period to live through.

I mean, Fauci would be damned nomatter what. If he hadn't done what he did, people would be blaming him for something else. His political crucifixion is somewhat unrelated to him doing good or bad things. He's just a scapegoat.

 

[Samson]

Don't get me wrong, I get where you're coming from, but I disagree. If I were in his position, and there was no political will to make more PPE, or handle any of the monetary problems, I would try and dissuade people from stockpiling as well. Stockpiling affected me here in the UK, personally. My wife and I literally couldn't order masks because people had backed up every single place that offered them (including the craft ones on places like Etsy). She was pregnant at the time - it was an incredibly worrying (and honestly, scary) period to live through.

I mean, Fauci would be damned nomatter what. If he hadn't done what he did, people would be blaming him for something else. His political crucifixion is somewhat unrelated to him doing good or bad things. He's just a scapegoat.

If I was in his position 18 months ago I may well have made the same decision, it was a balance of harms thing. If I had to make the decision now, with what I know now, I would make a different one. However it would be accompanied by information about how to make them. If you had been provided with information about the best material to use and easy to follow instructions to turn old clothes into masks would that not have mostly solved the problem? This is not high tech stuff, just getting some form of filtration in the way of exhaled air significantly reduces your infectivity.

Remember the goal of this announcement was to STOP people like you and your wife wearing masks (she is not a healthcare professional?). You were knowledgeable enough to ignore his advice, but the whole point was that others were not. Even if most people were not able to get masks, if everyone had covered their mouth and nose with something from the start, rather than scorning people who did, we may have flattened the curve a whole lot more, and may have stopped at least some of the variants appearing. Also, this helped turn mask wearing during a respiratory pandemic into a political issue. How many lives has that cost, even after the advice was rescinded?

 

[amadeus]

In retrospect, I would not have made his decision knowing now what I do. I’ve written here before that I think he was perhaps justified knowing what he did at the time and may have prevented a crisis in the immediate term, but people have been howling about it now for nearly a year and his critics point that out constantly. It’s given beef, D-grade though it is, to the kooks to sink their teeth into.

 

[Samson]

Protection provided by COVID vaccines fades over time

We found that initial protection against infection a month after the second dose of the Pfizer vaccine was 88%, while after five to six months this fell to 74%.
For the AstraZeneca vaccine, there was around 77% protection a month after the second dose, falling to 67% after four to five months.
​

Couple of things to note:

• This is still preventing 3 out of 4 (Pfizer) or 2 out of 3 (Astrazeneca) infections
• This is infections, not symptomatic disease or serious consequences. I would expect that to be longer lasting, as the memory B cells that really hold the "memory" of antibody production do not produce antibodies when not stimulated (so do not protect against infection) but rapidly ramp up production when stimulated, protecting against disease. Similar arguments could be made for T cell immunity.

 

[Gorbles]

Remember the goal of this announcement was to STOP people like you and your wife wearing masks (she is not a healthcare professional?). You were knowledgeable enough to ignore his advice, but the whole point was that others were not. Even if most people were not able to get masks, if everyone had covered their mouth and nose with something from the start, rather than scorning people who did, we may have flattened the curve a whole lot more, and may have stopped at least some of the variants appearing. Also, this helped turn mask wearing during a respiratory pandemic into a political issue. How many lives has that cost, even after the advice was rescinded?

Just a small clarification, but the problems ordering masks lasted for two solid months (at least, from memory). By the time they were being recommended, they were difficult to get. Because of the hoarding.

 

[amadeus]

accidentally letting it escape?

Do we have reasons to believe it would have been just an accident?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Do we have reasons to believe it would have been just an accident?

On purpose requires purpose.

I can't imagine anyone with knowledge of viruses releasing such a thing, especially on their home country first.

It is too monstrous, even for Chinese communists.
They are still humans.
It could kill anyone at any time forever into the future.

Natural or lab accident are the only 2 possibilities I can accept.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

630,000 dead vs. 26 dead.

Those poor New Zealanders! I hope they can recover quickly.

Arguing that dishonestly isn't arguing at all.

 

[Gorbles]

Arguing that dishonestly isn't arguing at all.

Claims that flimsy don't deserve treating nicely. Pretty sure I've seen you do exactly this to arguments not worth your time.

In this specific case, it's a claim that's been made (and argued) before, so I don't blame anyone for how they decide to rebut it.

 

[red_elk]

I can't imagine anyone with knowledge of viruses releasing such a thing, especially on their home country first.

Right, anyone from China wouldn't do this in their home country.

 

[Lexicus]

Now why would he do a damn fool thing like that? Fauci is and was the source of reason in the screwed up Trump administration non-response to Covid, and is continuing under Biden. People jump on him because he originally said masks weren't required. Do these stupid people blaming him for everything know why he said that?

It's because he didn't want everyone panicking and buying up all of the PPE which was in limited supply at the time, and leaving it for the doctors and nurses who needed it on the front line. When PPE was more commonly available, he reversed his position. But does the brain dead section of the American public understand that? No. It's sad that some people are so stupid that they have to concentrate to breathe.

While I would add that, IMO crucially, when Fauci recommended against the general public wearing masks, it was not known that much of the spread of the disease was through asymptomatic cases, I don't believe that what you've quoted is referring to the mask guidance. It is referring to the more recent push by Fauci for vaccines as the end of the pandemic.
(edit: in fact, I think @innonimatu is mistaken in blaming Fauci for that as it was someone else, the head of the CDC maybe, who directed that breakthrough cases not be recorded.

And I agree 100% with what @Samson said about the mask claim itself. I don't blame Fauci personally for this, but the fact that he was on TV saying "don't buy masks" instead of telling government officials that the governemnt should be manufacturing N95 masks and distributing them en masse to the public is a testament to how far our political possibilities have contracted.

 

[Hrothbern]

Today in Nature a clear and carefully worded statement of frustrated members of the WHO team today on China stalling the second part of the investigation with as scope the origin of Covid before the outbreak in Wuhan.
The quality of genetic material fades away over time and when that second part does not start soon with full cooperation a sound scientific conclusion is at high risk.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02263-6

Our group was convened by the World Health Organization (WHO) in October 2020. We have been the designated independent international members of a joint WHO–China team tasked with understanding the origins of SARS-CoV-2. Our report was published this March1. It was meant to be the first step in a process that has stalled. Here we summarize the scientific process so far, and call for action to fast-track the follow-up scientific work required to identify how COVID-19 emerged, which we set out in this article.

The window of opportunity for conducting this crucial inquiry is closing fast: any delay will render some of the studies biologically impossible. Understanding the origins of a devastating pandemic is a global priority, grounded in science.

Time is up

The search for the origins of SARS-CoV-2 is at a critical juncture. There is willingness to move forward from both the WHO international team and the Chinese team.

Crucially, the window is rapidly closing on the biological feasibility of conducting the critical trace-back of people and animals inside and outside China. SARS-CoV-2 antibodies wane, so collecting further samples and testing people who might have been exposed before December 2019 will yield diminishing returns. Chinese wildlife farms employ millions of people (14 million, according to a 2016 census11) and supplied live mammals to cities across China, including Wuhan3. In response to the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic, many of these farms are now closed and the animals have been culled, making any evidence of early coronavirus spillover increasingly difficult to find.

In July, four months after the full report and five months after our debriefing, the WHO informed member states of plans to create a committee that will oversee future origins studies. We are pleased to see both this and its implication that outbreak investigations will be conducted routinely, rather than in an ad hoc manner that could be perceived as politically motivated or with potentially punitive goals.

However, applying this new process to the continuing SARS-CoV-2 origins mission runs the risk of adding several months of delay. Member-state representatives would need to negotiate detailed terms around the sensitive issue of investigating laboratory practices, then nominate and select team members, who would then have to develop a work plan.

Therefore, we call on the scientific community and country leaders to join forces to expedite the phase 2 studies detailed here, while there is still time.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Ongoing Chinese reluctance to allow an investigation certainly points the finger at the lab.